Agents who belong to OnTheMarket could face huge fines and litigation against them, Zoopla has warned.
But OnTheMarket – launched a month ago – dismissed the suggestion as “desperate”.
Zoopla yesterday made it clear that a litigant against individual agents could be Zoopla itself.
Zoopla says that if the Competition and Markets Authority ever concluded that OTM’s “one other portal” rule breaks competition law, then Agents’ Mutual as a corporate entity would be subject to fines and possible damages, as could each individual agent. The bill, it says, could run into tens of thousands for smaller agents, and for large OTM agents such as Savills, run into tens of millions of pounds.
Savills declined to comment, but Ian Springett, chief executive of OTM, said: “We note the speculative statement concerning Agents’ Mutual strategy released by Zoopla Property Group.
“It is yet another desperate attempt to intimidate agents into remaining with them when it is clear that many more are likely to leave them to join OnTheMarket.com during the coming year.”
OTM also reissued a statement made last November in response to what it called “similar speculation doing the rounds at that time”.
That statement said: “From recent public comment, we understand that a complaint may have been made with the Competition and Markets Authority, alleging that aspects of Agents’ Mutual’s agreements with its members are anti-competitive and illegal.
“At the outset, Agents’ Mutual took appropriate legal advice as to the legality of its model and contractual terms. In the light of the advice received, the directors are satisfied that the company is operating within the law.”
Yesterday, as it became apparent that Zoopla’s move had become hot news in the industry, Eye published Zoopla’s press release, sent to us on the day of the NAEA’s London conference.
The Zoopla press release reads as follows:
“According to advice from top UK law firm, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP, if the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) ever concluded that Agents’ Mutual Limited’s (AM) arrangements infringe competition law, not only would AM as a corporate entity be subject to fines and possible damages, but each individual member agent would also likely be liable based on their participation in AM.
“The advice, provided to Zoopla Property Group plc (ZPG), states that, if the CMA at any time found an infringement of competition law, it could impose fines on each agency of up to 10% of their total annual turnover. In the case of an independent single branch firm the fines could run into the tens of thousands of pounds or for a larger firm such as Savills plc into the tens of millions of pounds.
“The advice adds that any of AM’s competitors, including competing portals and excluded online agents and property developers that have suffered losses as a result of any anti-competitive actions, could use the CMA’s decision to seek damages in ‘follow-on’ litigation, including compensation for lost profits, the diminution in the value of capital assets or lost commercial opportunities.
“And, critically, each agency firm would be individually liable for the full amount of any damages awarded, rather than just for a share, which could run into the millions of pounds.
“Whilst the CMA may choose to take a ‘wait and see’ approach to AM and not act immediately, the implication of the advice is that, if at any time during the life of AM the CMA does rule that its conduct has been anti-competitive, then the risks for those firms involved could be potentially devastating.
“Drawing on case law from 2012, the advice reveals that The Competition Appeal Tribunal awarded exemplary damages where it found that the defendants had acted with a specific intent to eliminate a competitor from the market.
“The specific statements and actions of AM with regard to ZPG create a heightened risk for its members in this regard.
“Lawrence Hall of ZPG commented, “Following receipt of this advice and the significant potential risks, we felt it important to share this information with our members and other industry participants in the interests of transparency.
“We do wonder if Agents’ Mutual has made its members fully aware of the potential exposure that they have opened each of them up to.”
Comments (216)
209 comments wasn’t a bad run gents. Even if I do say so, this has been a very significant week for our industry and once again I thank you both for your help.
Our discussion will obviously continue away from here but it was useful to document and evidence the hatching of Generation 5 at long last. It occurs to me that although Eye is brilliant for news related comment, it makes sense to have a user led forum that isn’t dictated to by news stories and PRvertorials.
The property industry should be very grateful to Lawrence Hall, he has angerd me into action!!!
“…it was useful to document and evidence the hatching of Generation 5”
There you go, Paul H – I said we had only been allowed to touch the tip of the iceberg… Robert prefers to say we’ve seen the tip of the chick’s beak emerge from its’ shell.
Whichever analogy you pick – it’s big and it’s gonna be impressive!
“it makes sense to have a user led forum”
Yeah – but aren’t there already a few property industry-related forums out there already to choose from, Robert?
You’ve got
‘HousePriceCrashMy@r$e’;
‘OnlineEstateAgentToday-WhoKnowsWhatTomorrow’;
and let’s not forget ‘CrowdfundingPaysForYerNextMerc’
but to be honest I’d rather not frequent those places as the inhabitants seem hostile to simple truths…
ANYWAY – I have good news for all. As of tomorrow you won’t need to skip past my posts for a little while – I’m taking a few days in a place where hopefully the rain is a little warmer than here ‘oop North.
Might see you back here around the 18th.
PLEASE don’t let the Onlinies or the petty portals break the industry completely while I’m away…
The motivation for a free form forum is to allow anyone in the industry to have a say, quite often like you and I or infrequently as other do.
No-one is really standing up for Agency; people like Alan Ward try but we collectively don’t have a voice when it matters.
Campbell Robb came out with some unsubstantiated Shelter statistic tosh on ITV the other evening. Going back a bit BBC Watchdog did a bit where they used Nigel Havers company let to quite incorrectly stick the boot into residential lettings. ARLA and NAEA are mute when it comes to fighting our corner, we only get to comment if Nat or Ros run a story so very often we don’t get a voice.
When Agencies do charity work the stories don’t find space simply because the volume would fill the front page 10 times over. I am happy to staff an run a free form forum not to detract from EYE as a news channel but a place where folk like you and I can blab away like the chuckle brother without boring anyone else.
I have already installed the software and like a teenage schoolboy I am having a bit of a fiddle.
Being brutally honest I can not afford commercial advertising so as I have done previously I will turn a requirement cost into a service that will cover my costs and I won’t need to Crowdfund a Merc or anything else. Traditional business done in a traditional way!
Enjoy your Holiday!
“…I won’t need to Crowdfund a Merc or anything else”
Never thought you would. I would not be surprised if there are a few shiny numbers sitting on drives already – and many more the subject of orders in progress – as a result of this crowdshafting malarkey, but you don’t follow the leader, Robert.
I can’t wait to see your next new toy! ;o)
If you follow the leader you end up where they end up only at the back!. In sailing if you are first over the line at the start there is a good chance of being first over the line at the finish. The only chance of beating competition that has a good lead is to tack off into clear air and sail your own race. Ready about? Lee Ho!
You are bound to find an internet cafe Peebee so rather than you wait till you get back here is some news; I have my 1st sale in the bag! The Accountant I went to see about investment to cover further development liked it so much he has bought a 3 year licence! There is some bad news he advised putting the price up by 400% for the first 50 early adopters offices and then 500% for everyone else. ( I explained it isn’t about the money) He said that if I save him one professional hour per month that ought to be the cost of the product to the applicants who will benefit most from the system.
Get off the internet and enjoy your holiday.
Dont panic I have 4 put back with your name on and one for Paul H who seemed to like it too!
I am not dead yet Peebee but sadly the unexpected can hit at anytime.
As you have even typed it in Stone Masons script would you please allow me to put that on my headstone?
I am grateful to you for those kind words and being deep in the archive now I do not need to be embarrassed to say Thank you!
” Middle Entrance Drive, Bowness looks nice too!”
Yes – and if a certain Mr Hendry could persuade them to sell it to me for his 3x salary for every property idea, I’d be sorely tempted…
…and yes, I brought that particular subject up for a d@mn good reason! Somewhere a few posts above I referred to the chancers, snake oil salesmen and Purveyors of Emperors New Clothes that have littered the industry as long as I’ve been in it. I have publicly (as PeeBee) and every day in my ‘job at the time’ over nearer 40 years than 30 done my bit to promote the property industry in a positive manner and work against that which eats away at its’ reputation. I am not alone in that effort. The vast majority of my colleagues in industry are honest, decent folk genuinely wanting to serve their clientele professionally, with no hidden agenda.
I can’t say this strongly enough – but bold and caps might just make it a bit clearer – I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT ROBERT MAY IS ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS. I AM CONVINCED THAT HE IS NOT PURVEYING SNAKE OIL OR FANCY GARMENTRY.
And if I’m proven wrong – then my judgement has been compromised, my place in the industry (that tiny tooth on the tiny cog whirring round inside the mahoosive machine…) will have lost all meaning to me and I WILL become a window cleaner.
warp 9.99998 a stray ‘The’ slipped in from somewhere! ease the throttles a tad
RTE’s are part of beta testing Peebee- normally I would provide a beta test agreement for testers to read before they commit to testing. This is such a tiny bit of the whole system pulled out of the air to make a point that I didn’t do that on this occasion. If you have time please see if you can reproduce it by hitting the keys in the same order to see if it happens again.
In Star Trek terms (bear with me please PaulH it is the only way of keeping his attention) it was widely thought warp 9.8 was only theoretically possible. Here and now I will The demonstrate 3128 x the speed of light, that’s right Peebee Warp 10!!! (OMG smiley)
An analogy on your terms – The Galaxy class ships like the USS Carolina which managed a record breaking 0.7 light years in 2 hours will be condemned to museums. Just as Mallard now rests in York respected and admired for what she achieved Rightmove and Zoopla are relative steam driven portals whose working usefulness will now start to diminish!
To seriousness , I have been up testing since early. Using the Open facility with the URL of the EAT archive see if you can find where Jonnie showed some respect for Mr George Dawes. Finding a single post, on a single forum, from a single poster buried within the vastness of the entire internet? Imagine what this is going to do to the millions being poured into passive intermediary agency…. all wasted! Their advantage is lost and the internet becomes a tool finally understood and harnessed by traditional agency in the UK.
There is obviously some risk attached to me letting you chaps into one of my secrets, both of you are OTM Gold members, either or both of you could simply hand over the login to Ian and his team and in well under the week it has taken me, replicate what the system does. This demonstration of tech wasn’t about software or technology it was allowing both of you assess me , my motivation, my integrity and my capability. It is a practical “elevator” summary of Robert May and my Generation 5 project; the 30 second précis I am simply incapable of writing not because of dyslexia or stupidity but because of the knock on implications of every facet of the project. Given the chance I will demonstrate solving rogue letting agency and all of the other subjects I post about ad nauseam.
I did chuckle at Jonnies post to George. More than I shoud and I Peebee once again you have made me smile.
I think Robert that I may have broken the new toy you gave me to play with. Having performed like a dream, finding properties in seconds that via the ‘usual’ search methods takes several times longer, I find myself getting ‘Runtime error’ messages when trying to find that weekend cottage to park my boat (oooh err, Matron…!). Now – it’s probably me and not my new toy – but so far it’s been pretty idiot-proof (I like that in anything computer-related) so maybe I’ve found one of your bugs you want ironed out – you tell me.
One of the major things it has opened my eyes to is the amount of ‘dead’ information that is there cluttering up the internet page after page and I’ve never noticed before on a ‘normal’ search facility.
You have made um heap powerful magic, Kemosabe. I am honoured to have walked a few small steps in your moccasins.
In answer to your closed questions:
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Hell, no
5. I would never argue with a lady.
;o)
try mooring, lake district, hackney and leigh
There is also a Hackney and Leigh board on a place on Lound Road in Kendal. Middle Entrance Drive, Bowness looks nice too!
Surely with that lot to look at your trip to the lakes will be worthwhile!
Please can I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have helped with the testing. I genuinely hope we can move this forward for the benefit of an Industry we obviously all care passionately about.
“Why you like it is because effectively you, Ros and PaulH designed it.”
Excellent! – I’ll expect a cheque in the post, then… ;o)
Rather than being seen to influence my UX team do you mind if I donate to Agents Giving? Integrity is a sacred treasure!
I seem to remember you are already donating to AG, Robert – I wouldn’t expect you to do so twice.
I’m sure I speak for your entire ‘UX Team’ when I say that as long as the industry benefits, however many hours spend shaking, rattling and rolling over your G5 Project will be time and effort well spent – and happily given.
Paul H – we have – and it was a wonderful and totally worthwhile experience. ;o)
Can’t wait for the AM Crimbo Party now that we’re aquainted!
“Can’t wait for the AM Chrimbo party”….over to you Ros 🙂
And of course also good to be acquainted with you PeeBee.
It appears that you have 2 agents that like what you’ve done Robert….well done this far!
Thank you Paul, I am looking forward to taking you on a journey.
I have to say publicly how much I have enjoyed the questions and challenges you have thrown up this week, every one rational, intelligent and considered. You are undoubtedly a good ambassador for OTM, but having talked to you now you are obviously a Great ambassador for our industry!
…so… here we are.
Okay – are we alone? I have a confession to make. I have clue not one with regard to scrums – I’m a footie fan if there’s no darts on the box (far less tiring on the eye than all that running about chasing a ball of ANY shape…), and waterfalls look pretty but make we need to ‘go’ (it’s my age, I reckon). That aside… I am looking at my new toy through two sets of eyes – that of the Agent who would potentially adopt it – and that of the person (buyer/seller/landlord/tenant) who would be either using it or ignoring it.
In best Maverick style I will say this – assuming that you want to play the part of ‘Charlie’ and you’re asking me whether or not this is going to end up as a crash and burn scenario…
“I don’t know – but it’s looking good so far.”
Robert – this has legs. S0d that – it has great big bleedin’ wings and if it doesn’t fly then I’ll seriously consider giving up what I love doing with a passion, and become a window cleaner.
Or a bingo caller – that way no heights to deal with. Don’t ‘do’ ladders – I’m six foot three – I don’t need to be any higher, thank you.
Looker, you – you’ve given me one of the bestest toys I’ve had to play with for years and then you try to divert my attention – it’s just not on!
Never mind ‘game-changing’ – this could well be game, set and match.
I’m keeping it for myself – I don’t want you to give it to anyone else.
There – can I go back to UXing or whatever you call it, please?
I am happy with that but you must learn to share!
Tike, you made me chuckle. If the intention was to mock or irk me, you failed, if that was humour and you haven’t worked out the Word Press (?) Smileys either you made me laugh. I am not Dobby if anything that is Tristan.
Robert – you are watching entirely the wrong stuff!
Quicker I get you weaned off crud that and onto Star Trek the better, methinks… ;o)
Oh Lord! Robert has no master. Robert is a free elf, and Robert has come to save Paul H and his friends!
I’ll take that as pure unadulterated sarcasm, Tike Nick.
That way, it will eliminate the need to tell you to wind yer neck in! ;o)
Without a smiley it is hard to know how to take that. I think it is funny compared with some of the stuff I have had thrown at me. Not so much on here but on EAT
Robert – on that thorny subject it has to be stated from an outsider looking in (remembering that I have only been back on the coalface for a couple of years), you have had more merde slung at you than a football stadium crammed with fans – but I have consistently witnessed you take it, turn it and make it into something positive and for that alone you have my admiration.
It’s been a journey and a half – and watching the sea-change in the mindsets of many has been worth the effort keeping up with it.
And it’s been a long journey – what is it… five, six – or more – years so far?
Thanks for the ride. ;o)
Geeves and Wooster! I am a service supplier to a service supplier; a professional Butler and that is exactly what I am paid to do. Customers are very often not right it is my job to sort things out. People really struggle to offend me because I recognise anger is either the first positive step in change or an early warning of a slapping.
To go from denial 6 years ago, to the hostility at EAT and early EYE to the sea change acceptance you mention means it is time to reveal and make the changes that are needed. Nothing clever, it is a classic change management sine wave.
I asked you to test something a few post up, Paul has and although 220 miles away I could hear the penny drop on the power and implication of what he was testing. I want to see if a penny drop is audible from 400 miles away.
What I am really fishing for is the classic Top Gun line (you started it) “I see some real genius in your system, but I can’t say that in there.”
As I said on the phone Robert, im no tech specialist and so don’t know if this type of capability is already out there, all I will say is I can see this being a huge benefit for the consumer as well as the agent! Although I await PeeBee to call me back so we can compare notes 😉
Genuinely if it has ever been done commercially before it would have been bought up by those it threatens. Hopefully you can begin to imagine how this tiny bit of clever Agent centric coding would do exactly what ‘Trafford’ described in 2012 and Ian Springett is half way to achieving now, and how that will affect both RM and Zoopla.
I hope you get chance to talk to Peebee I am looking forward to the consensus.
Come with me… come on… bottom of page… all will be revealed…
During one visit to Reduth I overheard a kitchen, old stager to newbie THS briefing; Don’t upset Robert you will regret it. How do you upset Robert? He seems O.K. You won’t upset Robert unless you upset his customers, don’t do that, no-one who ever did is still in the building!
This story upset me and as a result what was a bit of a hobby project for a reasonably comfortable early retirement got turned up to maximum! Ros Renshaw in her old who’s who had me listed as a Sales Guru, an FNAEA with .. (more flattery) knowledge of the industry, a game changer! In 96 hours with only minimal rest Tristan and I have built and demonstrated a beta version of one micro section of my G5 product. I have released it to 2 AM gold member firms, 2 Software houses and some money people for honest assessment not of the product itself but the power, drive, delivery and commitment to the industry of those who delivered it.
Simple closed (Yes/No) questions for the sake of clarity.
Zoopla have won awards for their tech, am I up to taking them on?
Judging the concept, not the product, that is deliberate camouflage of the latest model Rolls Royce for road testing (I registered the URL just for the demo)… have I demonstrated agent centric internet optimisation and efficient business communication tools to simply wallop any competitor who doesn’t have my tech?
Have I demonstrated a concept that, with time to think about the implications, can take on both Rightmove and Zoopla and with Agents support, Win?
As you are both OTM would you want me as competition?
Was Ros Renshaw correct to label me a game changer?
“Judging the concept”….the concept is indeed a game changer in that you are asking people to change the way they search, and this time by searching with a positive mindset as opposed to the usual way of searching. More to follow…
That means a lot Paul. Hopefully a sincere Thank you isn’t premature, Peebee is worryingly quiet!
Trust me, Robert – me being “worryingly quiet” is probably the best compliment and testimonial to your work there is… ;o)
The thing with UX testing is to tell me what you think, If it is on the right track I can move to the next bit.
With there being not much posting action on here today, if you have got time you could read up on UX adapted scrum.
I am new to it but love how it is so fast compared to waterfall development. I can create product far faster than the competition and because it has been mauled by customers all through the process there is virtually no beta phase.
Why you like it is because effectively you, Ros and PaulH designed it.
Ros doesn’t realise that a half sentence she said to me, an objection to the idea without the system being finished is already incorporated into the version you are looking at.
Ros hasn’t seen it but I already know it has the whole market view she wants. You could test that if you like whack in an agent lets use a good T’up North OTM Agent Hackney and Leigh go see if they have a weekend cottage for you, lets say you have a boat and want a property with mooring in the lake district. how about you time the search and results and then tell me if you could recommend this to a fellow OTM agent
The penny hasn’t dropped yet has it? I am not baking the next Hovis I am making sure the old Hovis contiunes to be baked by bakers!
Apologies – I was too embroiled in the chancers and snake-oil salesmen to remember that we agree the WAY forward is to BRING forward what has always worked in the past.
Some are bound to mistake that for us being nostalgic luddites.
Let them, I say. ;o)
Robert – I’m bringing this down to the bottom of the page – I feel like a kangaroo jumping all over the screen!
In response to your post above which ended “Let’s forget the 2 quid business that was a bit of humour that back fired with Nick’s help. I really would like to have two AM Gold members tearing my best efforts to pieces. Paul H is game, are you?”
How did “the 2 quid business” backfire? At worst, it’s got twenty quid from me going to Agents Giving – so there is a ‘winner’ already.
You also said ” (I found you having a sneaky Peebeeing on the ratonanagent archive thread)”
Well… maybe I just treat everything as snake oil until proved otherwise. I’m waiting for proof, in that respect – and it’s going to have to be good.
Past threads both here and ‘there’ are littered with those that tip up with the latest widget, gadget or must-have thingummyjig that will revolutionise, disrupt or otherwise make us all rich or redundant. I can think of one or two that I thought might just have legs. The rest have been snake oil or ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ (credit: Robert May) as far as I was concerned – and I can’t actually think of a single one of them that have taken anything by storm other than a teacup.
Sorry – I digressed. Back to the donation.
Typically, although I’m bu99ered if I can find it now, I noted on another thread a couple of days ago that your plan is to donate a mahoosive chunk of Wonga to AG when your “something” becomes the next Hovis.
That in itself is reason to WANT it to have legs, Robert – but I’ll not get carried away with sentiment. There’s too much at stake for ‘want’ to become a deciding factor.
Let me at it.
UX testing has begun! It immediately threw up an elephant in the room question based on the unique location of one of the testers, Paul H.
This has delayed the release of the beta system while we tweak and rationalise the system to accommodate legislation laden London.
Paul- I have tracked you down! I put my early rise to good use and re-indexed 4 large outlook data files going back well into the last centur.
It was great to see live chat incorporated into your web site. I have been testing live chat services again this week and by far the one you have chosen is the best I have experienced a definite alternative to the front runner I identified as good last year. If you remember I got in trouble with the headmistress for giving my opinion and an un-biased recommendation.
I will be in touch with a username and login later in the morning!
Mind you, Robert – seeing as Paul H is a rich Lahhndoner and all that (I’ve seen them on that Mr Selfridge programme – they’re all dripping in cash!), I hope he’s gonna chip in more than my paltry fiver a branch to AG!
At those fee levels it’s a given, surely!
Otherwise, Paul H… I may just have to march down there myself, matey! ;o)
Dripping in cash…your avin a laugh aint yer old boy:-)
I’ll happily do my bit for charity don’t worry!
P.S. I’ve handed over my contact details to Ros for Robert, she has my email address if you want a chat/email discussion PeeBee!!
Well… as an avid watcher of said Mr Selfridge I AM fluent in Cockerknee so I wouldn’t have any language problem there – but you’ll need to catch up with some serious amount of Catherine Cookson dramatisations – or at least one entire series of Auf Wiedersehen, Pet – before you could suss out the meaning of PeeBee’eze, Paul H! ;o)
Let me know when you feel you’re suitably bilingual!
Auf Wiedersehen….now were talking old boy!!
Jane is away from Agents Giving till March 9th- There is no donate now button (constructive suggestion- add one?)
Just seen this thread is still going, keep up the good work guys and girls 😉
If you were a gentleman you would help the Lady out! Peebee has been looking for some support and although he/she/unsure went to Jonnie’s help at the drop of a hat even his/her/their new found AM collective cohorts have abandoned him/her/them.
As you can see he/she/ unsure has either given up or is still in a custody battle over the some photos.
PeeBee need my help…Never…Anyway what is the subject she needs help in, are we talking about your new invention Mr May, i’m happy to test and I believe you have my email address?!
It would be wrong of me to miss the opportunity for both you and I to gloat that yes Peebee needs you to help him in his 15 round scrap with me. In a fight like the Ali v Bugner boxing matches of my youth, Peebee needs you to towel him down, perk him up and send him out fighting. Enjoy the moment Paul!
New invention? not quite Paul it is stuff that should have been built into Agency software back in 2008 but because it was decided that Think property with about 6500 Agents and in OTM target terms far more than that branches was not viable none of the benchmarking, specification or planning ever got implemented. (hard to stomach then impossible to believe now!)
You are right that I did have your contact details but I am sorry I don’t have much of my email archive left, the LPI emails have been switched off and my own 18 years of carefully indexed emails suffered a re-organisation due to a thunderstorm early last week, everything is there but finding things is difficult.
I am really grateful of your offer to help, please re-send contact details via Ros and I will call and explain what I am attempting to do.
YOU can be MY wingman, Paul H… we can fly into the known unknown together! ;o)
Can’t resist it, 2 P’s in a pod more like!
Ok PeeBee happy to assist!!
I probably ought to point out the £2 is the costs associated with developing and hosting a micro ( but significant) part of an overall system.
Ooo eck just realised Agents Giving will do quite well out of this if you are something to do with LSL, they are based up there! :eek
First off I am no-one special, not a big anything, I much prefer to be the clockwork movement than the Dial and hands.
There is a saying. PayPeanuts buy monkeys. There is another, a fool and their money are soon parted. Being open and honest I need investment to build a system, I can cover the cost of most of the stuff I need to build something, I don’t need money for me but I do need money for staff and some stuff. I know this looks like a begging bowl but it isn’t it is a challenge and one designed to make a point to every daft investor pouring cash in online passive intermediary agency.
For about the cost of a 300g pack of peanuts at Tescos £1.99- (£2 to help Jonnie with his maths) per branch/ month I reckon I can build and demonstrate a something that does not compete with OTM but which out performs Rightmove, Zoopla, On the market and wait for it (really big claim alert) Google!!!! when helping applicants find property on the internet where apparently 90% of searching starts.
He is a deal you donate to Agents Giving £2 for each of you offices as a one off. (Someone at AG needs to confirm your donation to this thread) I will give you a login to a beta system and demonstrate to you that not only can I whoop RM and Zoopla, I will make you aware of a slight ( easily fixed) issue with OTM but I will also beat Google in identifying a random drive by property that is currently for sale anywhere in the country. If I win I will match your donation to Agents Giving. If I lose I will stop posting, go way and stop bothering you all!
Slightly confused! Are you saying Peebee would be a fool if he coughs up to test something written on the cheap by you and the other monkeys? Just asking!
Uh-oh… someone’s cruisin’ for a bruisin’!
Yer a brave person, Tike Nick – but keep those cojones under close guard…
I haven’t got the measure of Tike Nick yet Peebee, I think both you and I know him from ‘the other place’ but I can’t put a finger on what moniker he used to use there. I had a stalker a bit like Smile please has Smile please 2. I can wait it out and not rise to the obvious elbowing he is giving you and I.
Anyhow Peebee you have some answering to do, you can’t goad me into writing code with assurances and flattery then suddenly be busy with other projects (I found you having a sneaky Peebeeing on the ratonanagent archive thread)
Let’s forget the 2 quid business that was a bit of humour that back fired with Nick’s help. I really would like to have two AM Gold members tearing my best efforts to pieces. Paul H is game, are you?
Anyway… forgetting the fact that Tike Nick is giving Robert some Tike Lip, There are four folk who have ‘Liked’ what the man has said.
Robert – you want me to be the dummy to crash-test your new vehicle – I’ll say it again – count me in.
It had BETTER be good – you know us Geordies have nowt – we even had to walk all the way from Jarrow down to ‘That London’ thee knows… so me parting with a few quid means the whippets go without food, and also being part Scot I’m tight as a gnat’s chuff so shelling out goes well against the rub of the cloth.
Somehow, though, I reckon it’ll be money well spent – so I’ll personally pitch in a fiver per branch… that’s a crisp Twenty it’ll cost you as well, Robert.
Game on! Old school wager between Gentlemen! I would say we will meet at dawn but that is a few hours away yet!
Robert – you say “…almost weekly since EAT began and PIE followed there have been projects launched and fail because they didn’t account for the customer…” That is the truest sentence I have ever seen posted – and a brave one considering you may well be next week’s claimant to having baked the new ‘Hovis’.
You will always get honesty from me – just as have all those who have waved their wares in front of us in past. I have in past been accused of negativity; of pooh-poohing, and worse – but at the end of the day I see no point in someone spending their own time and money (or in many cases that of others) to produce something that isn’t wanted, needed or fit for purpose. Nor do I want to see something that could be potentially damaging to the industry and its customers be rolled out to a deafening fanfare heralding the saviour of the market, in true RR fashion!
But I am fairly certain on one thing – and that is that you have shown an almost identical attitude over the years. I’m therefore inclined to think you’re really onto something and you’re pretty sure its not snake oil… or you wouldn’t be doing this.
I hope I’m right – you’re a big character in the industry with one H£ll of a lot to lose.
Bring it on, Mr May – and bare your ankles in readiness for a proper PeeBee’ing (not to mention a wardy’ing; a wilko’ing; and a Paul H’ing at the very least – and if the smutfilter lets it through, how’s about a good old fashioned Jonnie’ing…)!
I reckon you have got yourself a Netflix subscription and are catching up on every episode of Breaking Bad/ The Sopranos or Location, Location. There was a time when I was assured of an overnight reply to digest over an early breakfast.
Even though now in the archive this story got 15 views between 11:30 pm and 5:30am so as Mulder would assure Scully, we are not alone!
Have to ‘fess I’ve never seen a single episode of the first 2, Robert – the third makes me want to throw a brick at the TV.
Sorry – age getting the better of me I’ve obviously forgotten to remember to reply to something – thanks for the gentle dig.
I’ll go back… and come forwards! Watch this space…
With all this talk on equitable prices I haven’t let on what I am up to. Given your critique and opinion of most products is part of my drive and inspiration Peebee how do you fancy helping me with UX testing? (Fancy having a critical look at what I’ve built) ideally I would like a few opinions at an early stage rather than build something you all hate.
Count me in – it would be rude not to!
When you say you need ‘a few opinions’ are you looking for more volunteers?
Robert – at the risk of you and I having a public fall-out here on EYE (but at least it’ll be more interesting than most of the ‘news’ here on EYE and ALL of the propagan – correction, “news” – on the other site…), I absolutely commend your vision of a ‘fair and equitable’ pricing system BUT I simply don’t see how it is possible to work it.
Take, for instance, two Agents on the same High Street. One plays ‘The Numbers Game’ – aggressively touts and lists anything and everything on the basis that if they have it the competition can’t sell it… and consequently have two hundred properties on their books at any time; and the agent at the other end of the scale who works to lets just say ‘different’ tactics and has a register of fifty units. If both the Agents pay the same monthly charge, then on a cost-per-unit basis the second Agent is getting the poor man’s deal here, is he/she not?
You are absolutely right that the majority of offerings are ‘unfair’ in their pricing methodologies (assuming, that is, that there actually is a methodology…) – but I was rightly or wrongly making the point that there are permutations; micro-permutations and now even nano-permutations which I would suggest fudge the issue.
On the basis that the vast majority of these Agents ‘service suppliers’ make not a jot of differentiation – whatever commodity it is they we’re talking about – to the end users, and knowing that ‘us Agents’ are a naturally suspicious lot to boot – I just wonder whether those you are trying to attract will start trying to smell a fish that actually isn’t there…
I am now pressing ‘post comment’ at 2.30 – I started typing this at 8.00 & have been out on appointments since – so whether there have been more posts in the intervening period I don’t know. You may for all I now have already answered this to someone else…
One thing I have learned is that fair and understandable pricing wins more orders. I have already worked out an index that allows me to demonstrate fairness through simplicity and caters for the range of agents in a given area.
A traditional agent that contents themselves serving an area will always out perform a corporate rival 8:2 so although a stackem high agent might well have a massive register they need 200 properties to equal your 50, to achieve the same number of sales. An online agent currently needs to list 2450 to equal your sector’s success!
Because the pricing model is based on potential sales rather than a commision per sale, everyone in your given area has an equal opportunity of achieving those sales . Whether they do or not is down to both them and you.
We are back in the archive Peebee so no-one else is commenting, the read count is going up so I think they are waiting for you and I to fall out. I actually want to hear thoughts and objections and want to hear them now before I drive 400 miles and walk out of an office without an order because of something obvious to you and other readers.
“I actually want to hear thoughts and objections and want to hear them now before I drive 400 miles and walk out of an office without an order because of something obvious to you and other readers.”
That is by far the most sensible and responsible attitude taken by any ‘service supplier’ I have ever come across, Robert – but also totally against the rub of the normal so forgive my genuine surprise!
What you need here, however, is more than me. Maybe one of the reasons for that is that, by my own admission and confirmation from at least Paul H, I am unique in both my thoughts and my ways. You need the Paul H’s, the wilko’s and the Smile Please’s among others to batter you up a little also, in order to gain some consensus.
I think there is little doubt that we would ALL want one common ‘gain’ from your offering – RoI. Without it, then it is simply spend – and I know you back that sentiment to the hilt so I’ll take it as a ‘given’ that you are producing something that, as you suggest in what you say above, will have that box at the top of the ‘Features’ list and the tick in the box is there to be had – but that it will be up to our respective businesses to EARN that ‘tick’.
No pain:no gain – isn’t that right? ;o)
And surely I can’t be the only person reading this and wanting to know more…?
So close to 7000 reads suggests that we are not alone though it seems that some people don’t want to get involved for being Peebee’d or posted to the brink of despair by me yacking on and on.
NOBODY gets ‘PeeBeed’ – I mean PROPER PeeBeed – without good reason, Robert.
Most of the time I’m a gweat big puddytat… prrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! ;o)
I won’t argue with that, I can’t think of a single time when you haven’t been fair and honest with your criticism. That said there aren’t many people sure enough of their ground (or background) to take you on. I have often been impressed how you have managed to find out detail about posters and projects that pass most of us by. It is for that reason I said you are the litmus test for any project. I can’t tell you how many hours go into considering and preparing thoughts and ideas before they get posted on here and even now you have got me wondering how I can help you garner support and opinion in finding objection to what I am suggesting! I can openly admit it is part of the development process because almost weekly since EAT began and PIE followed there have been projects launched and fail because they didn’t account for the customer which you so typify.
I won’t claim you need help but I think you are getting nervous about ending up with either the glory or the blame for a product so heavily influenced by Peebee which is why you haven’t given me a committed reply on the equitable pricing model.
When I started modelling prices average transactions were running at about 105,000 per month, now they are down to about 75,000. I predicted a torrid time for the launch of AM and although things sound busy I am not convinced agency isn’t hurting and facing a Squiiz (pun intended). I was deadly serious in pushing you forward for a role in AM but both you and they have to understand why. I suspect you do!
The thunderstorm robbed me of a full week of development so I am not in a position to show anyone V1 but enough work has been done and enough likes gathered to indicate I am getting somewhere need where Peebee and the agents who he represents need it to be.
Most likely we are alone again Peebee. I have discovered the Fountain of unfairness and maximum profit!
I have been asked to investigate a RM bill nearly double that of a similar office nearby. Rooting around in data, plotting and trendlining figures for the industry it became apparent how RM are possibly working out their subscription increases. A 7% subscription hike mentioned by one poster in a story in recent weeks had me wondering. It looks very much like the Agents in lower value areas are paying the price for being in the same industry as agents selling to wealthy foreign buyers.
What probably started out as a fair and equitable pricing structure by Rightmove now isn’t, so although I take on board what you say about the complications of an equitable system there seems little point asking agents whose volumes and prices are flat lining to supplement agents whose volumes and prices are rocketing but whose index shows a smaller % growth than those at the bottom end of the scale.
With average transactions down about 25% :eeek to 75,000 per month and average fees being further eroded I thought you might appreciate the effort to work out a system that hits me in the pocket at the same time as agents. It is no sweat to create a pricing model that breaths with the market and encourages me to help with solution to make us all better off. It is a system that has served me well since 1994! The permutations aren’t endless- there are 20,000 branches in 3500 activity centres which once set up are finite. No chain or economies of scale discount ought to create a system that no-one needs to give consideration or concern to, just as business rates in London are higher than those in Pontefract it is relatively easy to tune a subscription to reflect the theoretical income of an agent. The bit you won’t have seen is that the current £100 average actually reflect the fall in transaction levels. If you think *** subscription across the country is more equitable and palatable now is the time to say. However instead of arbitrary subscription rises that no-one can explain or justify linking rates to the market removes for all time the necessity to sit down and hold a council of war annually with every subscriber. Reducing costs of sale and customer management makes for a more efficient offering.
AM do seem to have a per Agent approach to what constitutes another portal. Some local agents here have remained on Radar Homes because to secure a Gold membership sign up Radar Homes was considered an Agent owned portal, others have withdrawn from Radar; clarity is required.
Please give some more thought to the pricing model, if after what I have explained you think simple is best please say so. If I release something I won’t have the time to be defending the structure on EYE, I will be one of those successful corporate bosses too busy to trouble myself with you customers. (Can’t see it can you?)
I am desperate to avoid crowd funding; organic growth and re-investment is something I am used to (and awards for) but with 3 months of sandboxing by Google I won’t be able to demonstrate the full power of a system for a few months, when you said build it and we will come would you be happy paying annually in advance? If you think about it is only a single annual payment less than some local agent hereabouts are paying monthly to Rightmove. With 3 instructions already handed out before the tech is turned on, I can demonstrate value.
Right – thanks to one of the annoying ‘anti’features of the thread string here I am down at the bottom of the page, answering to Robert a few posts further up.
Firstly, Robert – an apology for not responding earlier. An ‘interesting’ day at work yesterday drew a fair bit of the old sap I have to admit – and then a family function kept me away from bashing out my thoughts… or, potentially, lack of them… on what is clearly an issue which you are and have been devoting substantial time and effort to.
You say above “I possibly ought to knock my King over and let you win this one…” – to which I absolutely disagree. There will only be one ‘winner’ in this, Robert – and it will be the industry.
It’s HOW it becomes the winner that is the issue – and what all this keyboard bashing is all about. Always has been with me… and while I know you can speak for yourself it’s what I have witnessed from you over the years of your own fingers doing your talking.
I have to admit never having watched the ‘Almighty’ films – it’s now on my Bucket List of things to do (which reminds me – I haven’t seen THAT movie either… note to self…). I guess I would aspire to be Morgan Freeman, as his influence over the years has been immense and no doubt is an inspiration to the next generation to carry forward his craft. But the mouse thing – well… it must give you a little chuckle to sit there and submit the next challenging post to me knowing that you are literally ‘pressing the buttons’ of one PB – and
(bu99er – hit ‘post’ by mistake… )
The last sentence should have continued
“… and also of this one!”
So – putting aside the fact that you now control my every move… you fired two extremely difficult posts at me asking for my thoughts on how to price an offering to the market.
I ‘get’ where you’re coming from but I fear that by trying to be “fair”, you may cause more problems than the perceived ‘solution’ is worth.
The permutations are endless, as of course you are aware, and whatever you do you’re always going to have someone claim that your ‘fair’ isn’t fair to them.
The online agent may well have issues – but of course they aren’t being forced to pay you anything at all if they don’t take you up – and they can’t expect to be able to argue that paying for a particular area isn’t fair – it is THEM that state they cover every inch of the UK, isn’t it! ;o)
But before we Somewhere above you state “I am not building a portal to compete with OTM so think carefully about your objections..>”
Only one ‘objection’ – and my battered brain thinks you may have already provided the answer so forgive me asking (but I reckon others will want to know also…) How do you know that you aren’t building something to compete? As far as I can see, AM make their mind up on a case-by-case basis about what is or isn’t included in their ‘one other portal rule’ – and if they decide they don’t want to lock horns with your multi-point antlers…
But as you say, the ‘rule’ may well be subject to some judicious (no pun intended) pruning in any event.
Which now makes me chuckle when I think of my own oft-typed saying “the rules are there are no rules…”
To you…
Here’s some advice Zhoopla, not legal, just common sense…
Instead of skulking around trying to kill off the competition from your tired, ageing No2 position… either step aside and let OnTheMarket through to challenge for No1 Portal or challenge Rightmove for No1 Portal.
Sadly, Zoopla will just sit there as they have always done so, trying to defend their No2 position. One wonders when that great big shiney portal penny will drop and they will realise that the battle here is not for No2 spot… it is for No 1 only!
Zoopla’s weakness is there for us all to see so why would we want to part of you. Instead of battling for the right to be No1 they sit in the shadow of Rightmove, having conceded that they are simply not strong enough.
For clarity…. as I have repeatedly stated the UK Estate Agency Industry only requires a portal as an Online Shop Window…. when the whole portal scenario exploded into a frenzy of glorified profit taking, 3rd party/unrelated products and escalating profits via spurious features/extras… the clicking sound in the background was The Duopoly unwittingly loading the UK Estate Agency Industry Gun which is now pointing at them as we finally woke up after being sh@fted mercilessly under the guise of The Duopoly being here to serve its paying members.
To be honest…I think it is time to move away from Zooopla because their previous and current actions have proved they are dead in the water when it comes to serving paying members… when wounded all they could do was run about randomly lashing out at those that had previously supported them.
It is time to move onto Rightmove as that is the toughest battle of all… as demonstrated by their profit bleating this week… they continue to grow fat not only on members fees, sales of spurious features/extras etc but on 3rd party/unrelated advertisers income as they continue to shore up their position and profits.
OnTheMarket must drive forward to it’s tipping point where the UK Estate Agency industry can jettison the profit taking virus that is Hikemove! I am delighted to see the Rightmove brand being washed from the High Street and look forward to having OnTheMarket.com as what the UK Estate Agency Industry wants & needs… an online property portal window that advertises property for Homesellers, Homebuyers & the Estate Agents who work damned hard at delivering the best result for their respective clients.
Rightmove and Zoopla are now Officially a Distraction to our business. Let’s get this Duo binned and get back to our business, serving our clients rather than The Duopoly!
PeeBee, can you nip over to the Countrywide article and help me out, I’ve been up to a bit of mischief and its backfired. – Jonnie
Going in, Jonnie…! ;o)
My considered reply to that post Peebee, you are the respect and specific domain knowledge that is missing from Agents Mutual. I am not saying that the existing executive is bad or is wrong but looking at AM as I would any competitor, I can see the gaps in the whole package offering. They need to give you a job and despite being outspoken for so long you are the bit that is missing! With you and the changes you would make AM would exceed the 8000 branch, 2015 target- without you they won’t! The wheels are already coming off and it needs a strong character like you to spot it, not be afraid to say so and to drive through
If I were an AM voter I would be suggesting giving you a job and would be actively lobbying for a second and wide spread support for your appointment in an operations role.
I hereby claim victory! 6+ years to find a post Peebee can’t answer!
but hopefully in a good way!
ROBERT!!! You flamin’ maverick, you!
Don’t think for one second you’ve stunned me into ‘silence’ – although I have to admit it’s the second time that you have almost brought me out in a sweat – trying to come up with something that doesn’t make me sound a complete t*@t (at least in MY head it doesn’t, anyways…)!
A few column inches above here, you responded to our resident Welsh contributor ‘Taff’ with a superb analogy of the Z likeness to a hot air balloon. I was in stitches, imagining the ‘crew’ (those individuals you named even higher up this page…) frantically bailing out everything that isn’t nailed, glues, screwed or chewing-gummed to the basket… and being left with only themselves and three lengths of straw.
They have, using best PeeBee terminology, ‘bu99ered up major-style’, and as you so succinctly put it “this is corporate knives. Someone is to blame, for the time being it is the customers, eventually the penny will drop it is poor board decisions.”
They can’t maintain volume – they shouldn’t even be trying because they clearly don’t know which kn0bs to twiddle.
Interestingly, when the same balloon analogy is applied to AM/OTM, there is a different scenario apparent. There’s been a humongous amount of hot air expended, yet so far the clouds seem to be keeping the balloon from achieving the lofty altitude it is capable of according to the manual. Difference is that it’s ‘all hands on deck’ with the AM balloon and if total (albeit somewhat blind) support from every Member counts for anything it will break through those clouds and soar (cue replay of the old ‘Nimble’ advert…).
BUT, Robert – I’m neither Captain nor First Officer for this flight. Too much at stake for too many people.
I’d be a bl00dy good wingman though, Maverick… ;o)
Game, set and match to me Peebee! I am genuinely flattered by the compliment and kind words but, using one of my clichés , I am perceived to have too many points on my antlers to be considered such a position. It is an ego thing, not mine but all those who have benchmarked Trafford, built AM and OTM and the way they have gone about it.
I have pushed your name forward and named the gaping hole in AM/OTM, your simple response should have been….” Why? Why are you pushing me forward for a position you can obviously see and are obviously qualified to fill?” You haven’t asked that question but I know you are thinking it.
Here is the answer, you told me in a post recently, build it and they will come. That is what I am doing, once again pointing out the issue with AM/OTM and how to fill it. I am trying to build a stronger AM so agents will come, not to me but to you/AM. That has confused you even more? I want to build a strong competitor and with you in Agents Mutual, knowing and understanding how I think through my posts on EAT and EYE would be strong competition. That alone would be a win for me. It builds something capable of taking on Rightmove which it currently isn’t.
Where does that leave me? I get to build something better and stronger, I get the challenge of competing in an Americas Cup level fight rather than a round the cans club race and at that point it gets interesting. Rightmove is undoubtedly winning this multi stage race, but in sailing terms it is a Keel boat, good in its day and loved like the J class but compared with the modern AC45 simply hopeless.
You are too good to be my wingman Peebee, have confidence in your knowledge and experience. If AM can’t see they need you or don’t want you I definitely do!
Well I more than half expected an overnight reply Peebee, you haven’t gone all ‘senior service supplier executive’ on me have you? No matter I have a fair to all pricing structure to work out, it has had me awake since 3 and it have to get it clear before I can sleep.
You are up North, I found a 3 bed semi t’up north for 100,000 in one town, just up the road, obviously a posh bit, the same thing was £135,000. Down here the same property is £220,000. It doesn’t seem right in my middle child syndrome brain to charge you the same monthly office subscription as an Agent hereabouts. It wouldn’t be fair would it?
Not knowing much about commission rates in your area I suspect to eat, you charge a bit more than the Agents close to me, one of the OTM agents ( a new and very useful benchmark introduced across the country) will happily charge 0.8% to sell the £220k semi.
How about you give this idea a Peebeeing?
Average property value nationally = £175,000 average commission 1.25% If the average office pays £100, would you follow the logic that the agent down here £220k @ 0.8% would pay £80/ month for branch coverage, the agent up where you are on say 1.5% commission would pay £68 for the branch with the £100k properties and £89 for a branch that sells in the better area? London branches £560k @ 0.5% £128.
An online agent claming national presence would pay £365 to be represented in all 4 areas, a single branch covering a single area the calculated rate for their single branch, a two office firm covering both £157.
You were the one who told me to build it! That is now a work in progress thanks to your encouragement, you can at least help me with an equitable pricing model. No corporate discounts, no buying position, no featured property slots.
I am not building a portal to compete with OTM so think carefully about your objections this is a transparent haggle and I will be expecting Peebee and Co to sign up.
Other question s that will rattle through when thinking about this. When you find an electricity/ gas or water supplier who will allow you to choose who else they supply their utilities to I will immediately allow you to choose who buys my service. Controlling your competition is your job not mine.
In my head I have a system that levels the playing field on subscription, it doesn’t favour or discriminate against any business model and it automatically adjusts for location. If I use land registry volumes and my price determinator, if the market improves, volumes or prices, subscriptions will be adjusted accordingly, if prices or volumes fall in an area so will subscriptions. I have trend lined subscription rates it looks like the will increase by about 7% annually as an average. If we have another 92 or 2008 subs will fall back to reflect the market on a local level. A business needs to cover it own costs so if labour win the election and prices and volumes plummet that floor will be set at February 2015 prices.
This story is in the archive now so hopefully I won’t get accused of pitching to the industry and we can use this as a transparent discussion base where I can ask you (or anyone else who finds it) for real and robust honesty. I am not afraid of being wrong or stupid I accepted long ago we are all somewhere on a spectrum some are up at the head end, some are down at the tail but most of us are in the belly.
How about this Peebee
I have now done the 4 scenarios.
North East per branch average £75/ month. I have enough data to invoice monthly £77.50, 75.98, £71.43 to account for sales fluctuations but realistically that would be one extra thing to check each month so no overall gain unless the market turns against you.
In the Nest West the average is £80/ month (the monthly transaction swings would be as low as £58 on their bad months and £101 in the good months)
Devon came out at £103,
Greater London £227.
London is an interesting one; the difference in a few hundred yards and the type of property being sold will make a difference in the subscription. An agency that only ever sells £400k flats didn’t ought to pay the same as an agent selling at an average £1million.
These aren’t set in stone figures just for you to consider the concept!
To give you an idea a genuinely National Online Agent would face an average subscription of £350,000 per month for the 3500 activity centres in the UK. In fairness they would only be charged for the activity centres they can reasonably and profitably cover so this seems a transparent and fair way to allow everyone to compete equally and honestly on a local basis.
I have not explored sales volume permutations but that is another factor that might be worth considering, It seems a bit steep to charge the national on line agents £350,000 per month (each) when the are only combined grossing about £750,000 (guess for completions) each month. But I guess I have to be fair and consistent to everyone !
It isn’t in the archive, someone put it up top for all to see!!!!
“This story is in the archive now so hopefully I won’t get accused of pitching to the industry and we can use this as a transparent discussion base where I can ask you (or anyone else who finds it) for real and robust honesty.”
Well, Robert – seems like our normal ‘archive discussion routine’ has been disturbed on this occasion – somehow it’s back as front page news!
That’s not a bad thing by a long chalk. More the merrier who are reading and responding, I would suggest.
Apologies for not responding to your previous post before now – as a result I’m now having to deal with two for the price of one and I’m not sure how this is going to work.
Yes I am – respond to yesterday’s post first. Here goes – and with a bit of luck some of what I say will go somewhere towards answering today’s.
You opened with “Game, set and match to me…!” I wouldn’t be too quick to claim ‘victory’, Robert – I would suggest it’s more a case of deuce in the final game of Set 1 – and before we’re over and done for one or both of us it’s going to be a case of ‘new b@11s, please’… ;o)
Let’s take this away from what could be construed as outright mutual ego-tickling. The first point I would raise if that were in question is that of course I am ‘anonymous’ on here – so what would be the benefit to me or anyone to ‘big-up’ what is essentially a fictional character? The very same can be said about much of your past postings where, through your various ‘friends and associates’ you have fought the corner for our industry in relation to many different subjects without Robert May claiming any kudos points. To be frank (not a bad name to consider posing under, come to think of it – where do I sign up…), having witnessed some of the flak your past posts received when in ‘Robert’ mode I take my hat, scarf AND top coat off to you for having the cojones ever to use your own name!
ANYWAY… point is that despite your kind recommendation to AM that I can fill the job role that doesn’t actually exist within the organisation, it’s a role that would be suited to someone…
…else. I have no other word for it. For a nanosecond I considered picking up the phone to Mr Springett and saying “You need me”. He does ‘need’ me, of course – in the same way that he ‘needs’ the (insert number here)-odd other Member Office Manager/Director/Principals… and just as much as he ‘needs’ the next tranche of Members coming through in lumps, bumps, dribbles and drops that might just finally silence the doom-mongers.
Who knows – one day I might even be a fully juiced-up member of the AM Collective – instead of a ‘Gold Member Fence-Sitter’ where I reside now…
It’s YOU that wants the thrill of The Americas Cup, Robert. My last episode of ‘sailing’ was on Newcastle Exhibition Park, aged about nine. Let’s just say it didn’t end well.
Now I leave everything to the respective ‘experts’ in their field.
Or boating pool, as the case may be…
We will just have to carry on in public then , digital K9ing? (no way will ******* get through the filter.
You got me! but I did tell you that so it doesn’t count, I am after harder and stronger competition than RM and Zoopla so was hoping you could add a bit of edge to an ‘old school’ board. They need someone who will field questions from the floor of meetings and not just do a damn good and motivational job of a rehearsed script.
There are buying signals being thrown around on here like confetti but no-one is tackling the minor objections attached to the obvious desire to join.
This original story was about Zoopla unable to cope with the competition of AM, a very sad admission by a failing board if you ask me but after a week on the phone to various contacts it occurs to me that CMA might take notice of anti competitive claims if they were bought by a Micro or SME business that is genuinely being adversely affected by the one other portal rule. I can think of one particular firm out of 97 other small portals who can demonstrate a strangling of their business. With the effects on both Rightmove and Zoopla now known and the point very much made, now is the time to reconsider the one portal rule before you are forced to or forced to spend your advertising budget defending a claim bought by someone who can demonstrate difficulty or loss.
SO… We’re now into a tie-break for the set, I guess. Hard though it is to admit I reckon I let a foot fault cost me a valuable point there – I was sure I’d aced you but you’re a tough nut to crack. We’re now at tie-break, having reconvened after our break for a glass of Robinsons (if I remember the adverts correctly) – but before I ‘attack’ this one – your previous post (actually I see it’s now TWO posts – you doing BOGOF, Robert?) needs some attention, doesn’t it/they?
Unfortunately, I’m in the middle of World war III here at the minute between a purchaser and THEIR Agent, who doesn’t apparently (client’s view, not mine…) know how to deal with a 10% downvaluation.
I really need to sit down with a wet towel over my head and let what you are proposing sink in. Perhaps it will give others a chance also to give their views – the last thing I am, or want to be, is a sole hand in a voting opportunity.
I’ll be back – but it will need to be much later, I’m afraid. Best you look in tomorrow – I value your opinion of me and I sincerely don’t want to ******** you with what I think you want to hear, as it will do NO-ONE any favours… will it?
Ahhh… the life and work of a bald, overweight Estate Agent! And you want me to give all this up… for what?
ONE of us is nuts! ;o)
12 hours on a Saturday already suggests who that is.
Could be worse looking at the figures 10% where you are is only £13,000 where Paul H is it’s £57,600!
I possibly ought to knock my King over and let you win this one Peebee. I am now convinced you are the Morgan Freeman character; my new server came with a wireless mouse and keyboard which I, in the spirit of ‘yes dear I will keep a tidy desk’, decided to link to my favourite slippers windows XP desktop (one keyboard and mouse not two cluttering the live-workspace) Well sat here at early doors I noticed something of significance, not only does the keyboard not include every letter I input (digital dyslexia as well a cerebral) but the logo on the Packard Bell mouse actually says PeeBee!!!! I realise I can’t win; Rightmove, Zoopla, OTM, Mother Nature and a sign from above!
You can’t go pretending to just be an Agent, Morgan Freeman appeared first as a cleaner!
Robert – this is getting too thin to read – taking it to the bottom…
Okay… here goes.
(Note before I start – this post is going to be hard to follow because I’m flitting between Robert and other readers. Sorry in advance – it sort of makes sense… somewhere…)
Robert May said “There isn’t the skill or aptitude within Zoopla to be competition to the industry so someone needs to wake up and remember they are a service provider.”
The thing is, Robert, BOTH of the portals you baptised ‘the duopoly’ couldn’t go back far enough in their memory banks to find at what point they, the metaphorical ‘tail’, started to wag the metaphorical ‘dog’ that is us, their PAYING CUSTOMERS.
When the first major stirrings started on EAT (when it was a good place to loiter with Ros at the helm…) some five or so years ago I was working on the fringe of the industry, and like you, had a different perspective from those on the coalface. It is with that perspective in mind that I have posted since the ‘AM concept’ was first mooted. Like you, I have faced a fair barracking from many (I have to admit however that compared to the reception your input often met with, mine was little more than gentle banter…) but unfortunately many words of ridicule/derision or even worse that were aimed at us and others who simply were raising concerns (which all the text books I’ve ever been forced to digest and regurgitate, ‘PeeBee-style’, that is… refer to them as “objections to be overcome”). To be fair to those who spent many, many hours engaging in the ‘banter’, they tried but no-one could ever satisfy my concerns.
(That is in no way meant to be read as a negative against you, guys – I couldn’t satisfy my own concerns so I’d be frankly amazed if you could!)
Believe me, when I say you took some of the sharper edges off that’s one Hell of a compliment – and I thank you (you know who you are… ;o) ) for taking considerable time and trouble to do so… and I now qualify, I guess, as one of the AM Collective!
Paul H – you will remember I previously said I’m unique. Well – some things never change – I am probably the only ‘fence-sitting Gold Member’ in existence!
But I’ll fight my corner – and my corner is now AM.
Anyway – back to Robert. Digression over (for a minute, at least…). In an earlier post he said “Isn’t it a shame, none of the portal executives have the, time confidence or depth of knowledge to post on here and address their audience and their competitors… Hall, Notley and Chesterman will be aware of the impact and reach of both EAT and EYE yet it appears they and their contemporaries are all afraid of engaging with their customer base…” This is so true – ironically it is something that was also subject of much ‘debate’ regarding no-one from AM ever joining in our daily discussions here on EYE but seemingly preferring to leave the AM Membership to do their talking.
You are correct, Robert – they ALL need to remember which end barks and which end wags.
And when the Master/Mistress (there – just to keep Jonnie’s new PCP buddy happy…) who feeds the animal shouts “Jump!” – they, as the service provider, should immediately reply with “How high?”
A couple of people have said something along the line of “poke an elephant and it’ll trample you down”. Fair comment – and I suggested this months ago could be the case.
However, IF an elephant tramples its keeper, it is generally dispatched with no question or hesitation.
ESPECIALLY one that shows no remorse and has the glint in its eye that things will only get worse…
Robert said “whether it is Mr Shipside, Notley, Hall, Chesterman or Springett they ought to be engaging with posters and the agents they represent.”
Yes, they should – absolutely.
But I think they’re all too frightened of the elephant gun, Robert.
A great post PeeBee. I’m just amazed that you managed to keep your cards so close to your chest for so long.
That took some reading Peebee! I need to re read it to fully digest it but I can put a date to it; 24th October 2008.
I will reply later; ‘duties’ to attend to this morning.
Morning PeeBee (and everyone else!) @PeeBee Not because you “are out” just because you are right! I agree. (again ;-p)
I too must admit as Pau H may confirm (through our other avenues of conversation), I too consider myself as “Gold Member fence sitter” OTM is a Horse I have backed and will fight its corner, but like you still see a fair few issues. All be it I came off the fence on day one as the idea of this working was simply so exciting.
Ian (Springett) to be fair has personally answered concerns of mine each and every time I have emailed him pre and post launch! and HUGE respect for that. But I agree, it would be great to see a AM rep say “yep here you go, I am here, fire questions and I will do my best”. In fact if they get on with this and engage NOW they would win a few more hearts I guess as it is clear Z will not do this now and can’t….. Z have opened the door in my opinion for OTM to take even more control but this needs to be done whilst the Z hammer blow is still fresh in the mind of the fence sitters.
Just for the record; more and more valuations asking me about OTM and not only their own knowledge of it but mainly the CW corps bad mouthing it on their valuations and we keep listing the houses as a result. Keep up the good work CW 😉
Good day to all!
If the Competition and Markets Authority are the final authority on this, isn’t there a good argument for AM referring ITSELF, to get a judgement on this rule one way or the other? I reckon the legal eagles who advised AM on the legality of it in the first instance would be more than happy to do their bit. My point is IF there is an issue, aren’t we better off confronting it head-on at the earliest opportunity?
Although this does have everything to do with AM, they are the victims. This is more about boardroom/ shareholder pressure. Riding the highs of expansion and investment often gives the impression of success. Add Thinkproproperty, add Globrix, add Primelocation and Findaproperty and there was the impression of building something solid. With nothing left to buy and lacking the empathy with the customer base this particular Hot Air Balloon is losing altitude very quickly. Without specific understanding of Agency or more importantly an understanding of Agents the tedious job of keeping the thing flying level is beyond them. With all the sandbags gone now is the time to sacrifice the crew. The very fact the discussion with the solicitors has been made known let alone escalated to this level is in my opinion disgraceful.
“I don’t like…”
“Break up the monopoly”
“I bet Zoopla are br*cking it”
“RightMove next”
Some of you post multiple posts on here, hour after hour, day after day talking about what you don’t like and who can throw their dummy the furthest from the cot. I wonder how your vendors would feel about the sheer volume of hours spent wasting time congratulating each other on paying a fortune creating something they couldn’t give two bobs about. If you were a junior staff member and your boss found you spending this much time on FaceBook I imagine some of you would be fired. It’s like a playschool.
I’ll be honest, not one of the regular posters discussed the business motivations and objective reasoning behind backing on the market, it’s all down to not wanting to pay for advertising. Boo Hoo, join the 21st century and drop the papers if you’re worried about cost.
The fact you are doing it to save a few quid and screw the customer is why it’s anti competitive and seen outside the industry as a joke. A hilarious one that will cost estate agents fortunes up and down the country.
Not because Z & RM are the gospel, but because it’s all so self congratulatory and self serving. If it was better than what’s already out there, then fair enough. It isn’t. If it moved the industry on, then fair enough. It doesn’t.
Shame on the time and language and disrespect to your customer base.
This will put a lot of the backward, tech-resistant dinosaurs in this industry out to pasture. Which is is the nature of evolution.
So there is one good thing about OTM after all!
Well by the looks of it most (including myself) own our own agencies, We have done the junior neg bit, provided jobs for others and now take time out when we like (bonus of owning your business)
I see this customer loses out time and again, How exactly???? They still sell their property, still on major portals, still in papers so tell me how they lose out?
As for advertising why not try and cut our costs??? – If an alternative option offers a similar package at a fraction of the cost why not embrace it?
No disrespect is towards the customers at all, we are infact looking to help them. If we continue to just accept RM’s offering and 10% per year price hikes (how do you justify that) our offering would not be the same unless we increase out fees. Would you like me to put up my fee 10% each year?
Oh by the way i am not even an OTM member – Just can see it from both sides unlike you.
I see it from both sides, I just find it odd to constantly sing the disgust of the dual monopoly, whilst trying to make a new inferior one, that is better for the agent & has nothing in it for the vendor.
And there’s no way of spinning it that doesn’t disguise the fact that a marketeers job (and that’s what agents essentially are) is to promote a customers property to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible. If one acted in the vendors interest only this would be carried out.
On The Market isn’t the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even in the top 10 property websites in terms of traffic. But it might be a bit cheaper….let’s go for that option.
Yes you are right in that at this moment in time its not number 1 property portal.
But as you have seen from previous posts nobody has dropped the number one portal! so customer are not effected.
The idea is they get enough agent then turn off RM’s feed that way they are number one.
In some cases sellers are better off as before an agent only advertised on RM now they are on RM AND OTM.
Greatest respect DE this is the problem with people talking about our industry when they don’t know the ins and outs.
We get pitched to all the time “This will change, disrupt, etc the industry” – An ALL of them fail because they do not have the agents backing because something is missing.
OTM has a vision, they are getting backed as its good for the industry and customer. The question is CAN they deliver it.
We all love what RM has to offer but if we can get it cheaper why not? – If somebody offer you 2 BMWS 1 at £45,000 and one at £20,000 which would you chose if no difference? – Thats what OTM is trying to get to.
I will join as soon as the tipping point is there, i will not join now but when it proves to me it can do what it promises and the public know and like it i will join (i thank the brave ones now for starting the ball rolling).
Oh and it is actually more expensive then Z which everybody is dropping by the way.
Just drop RM. That’s the answer. Drop both RM & Z and put your money where your mouths are!
RM have been there for 20 years. You’re collectively kidding your selves – be brave, just drop them both.
That time will never come. Agents follow each other….except to OTM. 95% of the market on RM, 70%+ on Zoopla. 25% max on OTM.
Didn’t go too well eh?
I see Savills don’t have ANY OTM branding in their windows. They must be laughing their heads off.
Well thats the challenge to get agents to switch on mass which is why i have not joind as not sure its possible.
However in just the first month you have already pointed out OTM has 25% of stock – Thats not too shabby!
If they can and is a big IF get to number two spot within a year i actually think agents will switch to RM – Its the only chance of stopping the monster!
The hard bit is now convincing another 30% of agents to join …….. But they are well placed and have done better than anybody before them.
FYI – I dont think Savills ever had RM or Z branding in their windows did they?
I have no branding in my windows, The odd ones i find are the ones that have OTM stickers all over the window put have just put up the new RM ones that got sent out!
Wow that escalated quickly!
To be honest are any of you surprised by this?
If you poke a bear expect to get bit.
I think the way they have gone about this is all wrong, but they were always going to come out fighting.
I think what it comes down to is cash, like an election the bigger war chest wins!
OTM have a number of agents for 5 years so have a healthy pot and Z have how ever many millions hidden away. Who will spend their money the wisest? OTM have agents on side so that must be worth 10 million on its own!
Definatley a need and want for OTM but can they keep the ball rolling …………
A balanced view as always Smile, one thing we all seem to agree on is , in your words;
“I think the way they have gone about this is all wrong,”
Pro agents across the UK will not want to advertise on a portal that spends more time issuing press releases like this, instead of promoting their portal. They haven’t advertised on tv in ages and have centered their advertising around agencies “must” be on with them if sellers want to sell, rather than how good their property portal actually is. All agents are interested in is results from advertising and they have taken their eye well and truly off this ball. Week commencing 16th Feb showed our enquiries very close behind what we were getting from Zoopla and it wont be long, I’m sure, before they catch up and overtake them on enquiries. It has been proved time and time again in recent years that tv advertising has a direct correlation with potal visits. OTM has been advertising on tv non stop and Zoopla haven’t.
I must say i am surprised by Z lack of TV advertising (we are covered with purple billboards and bus shelters here) – And i am glad to see more targeted adverts from OTM on mainstream channels.
Personally if it was me i would be on TV as much as OTM trying to aline myself with OTM and look to topple RM. I would also have taken out page adverts in local property papers.
But hey, i dont run a portal just an agency!
Good to hear levels are where they were pre OTM that is an encouraging sign!
This is going to be a bitter war between Z and OTM – Winners are RM laughing all the way to the bank!
“Winners are RM laughing all the way to the bank!” I think you are right but they must be worried by how fast agents are actually leaving Z for OTM. If I was in charge at RM I would be fixing agency fees if they sign up for 3 years or so…….not increasing across the board by c10%. It is widely known that RM have told their shareholders that they believe the value of their product to agents (core rate) is worth £1000min. pcm at present. If OTM continue to grow at the same fast rate… they are going they will see off Zoopla and then turn on RM, I think RM realise this which is why they are trying to squeeze as much cash out of agents at the moment…..they must be worried though.
3 Year lock in Shhhhh That will hold back OTM!
When and if OTM get 60% agents signed up that when they need this 1 vote malarkey to say ‘Right on the X of Y we are all coming off RM’ – To me thats when it get exciting!
The feedback from fence sitting local agents in my area ( I forwarded the story yesterday on the breaking news feed) is that they are definitely going to drop Zoopla with a view to joining otm en masse in 2 of our towns. The main reason discussed is the fact that they cannot understand why a portal set up to serve the property industry (Zoopla) is actually actively trying to get a huge part of that industry into serious trouble. As one mentioned in an e mail…..”the sheeps clothing is off and we can all see the wolf now!”
wilko, 20% of the homeowners in your town put out a statement saying they would never sell through your agency and then set up a tent outside your offices actively trying to dissuade any other homeseller in your town from listing with you, what would your response be?
I think I understand, and my initial thought would be “why are they doing this?” and “what has lead to this”. There would have to be a reason?
Where Zoopla are concerned, and I’ve said it before, they should have really, and I mean REALLY, tried to fight the situation post Jan 2015 by pushing their service, tv advertising, and trying to put together outstanding packages to woo back their lost clients. Going back to Zoopla was always an option for me and many others on this forum and throughout the UK – not now- under any circumstances. Their approach has pretty much signed their own death warrant, in my opinion, because in any business, you do not actively try and get ex clients in trouble……you try and win their business back. Whatever anyones’ opinion on the OTM situation, there won’t be many (if any) who would have taken this approach if they were in charge of Zoopla. OK, don’t take it lying down, but fight back in a business like fashion…….NOT like this. That is why they are now doomed to complete failure in my opinion. Shareholders who lose out big time should not blame OTM, but those at the helm of Zoopla who have very quickly shown they are not capable of steering the company out of stormy waters but have set co-ordinates which will lead straight onto the rocks.
This pretty much sums up why we couldn’t wait to dump tacky Zoopla at the first opportunity. Poor service level run by amateurs – Well welcome to the real world of business, time to start working for your hugely slashed income. I would never have gone back anyway, but for many others this silly cheap scaremongery will at least have burnt many more bridges as they finally show the true poor colours. Goodbye zoopla.
This isn’t an immediate issue both sites work for those people still on them. I couldn’t care less what Zoopla say or do as long as they produce the leads. They can argue until they are blue in the face as long as Zoopla is financially better for me I wont go anywhere.
“…as long as Zoopla is financially better for me I wont go anywhere.”
And you will know that how and when, exactly…?
I saved 16k over two branches dumping silly zoopla? Do you have shares?
You must have been paying through the nose for Z then?????
Most people are paying more to be on OTM!
If I moved to OTM, it would cost ME more each month for a site that is lesser known. Plus I have not heard one agent saying OTM are supplying twice as many leads as I used to get from Zoopla. So I sit here on the fence.
I don’t see why all you Zoopla haters and OTM supporters are trying to pull everyone with you. The business owners know whats best for them and their business and they would move if OTM was a better option.
@PeeBee – you ask me how and when I will know that the simple answer is I DONT, no one does, but if a rep can prove to me OTM is better for me I will gladly hop on the bandwagon. Maybe I should have said “as long as Zoopla send me business that covers their costs and more I wont go anywhere” So far Zoopla aren’t giving me a great impression through this war of words but they produce the goods at the end of the day.
I would sign up for any portal that brought me more business than it costs but I cant cut out Z without losing business. OTM will have to be cemented in No.2 spot (or reduce my Z leads enough that Z is not profitable for me) cant see that happening in the near future.
Keep me posted though!!
And I won’t dump RM as they are my bread and butter.
To help you make your mind up however I will share this: An agent advertisers on the portals for two reasons in my mind, possibly three but lets simplify it; they want leads, but they also want profile or something they can sell to vendors as “we do this”. As I have eluded to elsewhere the unexpected by-product of OTM is its appeal to those middle to higher end users. We are seeing great returns from hitting the Hamptons type agents which were sat nicely alongside their posher relatives at RM and Z/PL but are now not. I have a few branches operating in slightly higher value markets and their response from OTM has been very impressive both in terms of the response they get from property listed and the instructions they are now being able to pick up.
What I want from my marketing buck is something that produces sufficient leads and something that helps me sell to a slightly different audience: I now have both.
Realagent it’s nice to see someone with a great outlook on the portals.
I need them for leads, without the leads my business wouldn’t exist as we cover a wide area for such a small agency. Also we pride ourselves on being able to produce something very different to other agents in the area (photos blurb etc) and RM and Z with the exposure they get it is easy for our vendors and buyers to see that we stand out from the crowd.
We never let RM and Z sell our properties, we do the selling. All they do for us is that shop window and what I wouldn’t want is a smaller shop window.
I agree you do but you might want to think about whether you as an agent want to shop windows that say sell or one that does that for you and then another that says BUY!
Truth to all those points and as i have said time and again we do not know each others areas so unfair to judge – We just do what we feel is right.
As for knowing when to shift, you will know this by vendors asking “Do you advertise OTM” when that question is heard more and more thats the time to ditch Z in my opinion.
This statement by Zoopla is bizarre, both in terms of its timing and its aggressive tone. Might signal a bit of desperation on their part. That said, I’m not sure that’s a great thing for OTM agents. I’ve said all along that anyone who expects to come kick a multibillion PLC in the face and expect them to do nothing in retaliation as they watch their business fall away was completely deluded. This is clearly a warning shot from Zoopla as to the types of measures they might intend to take. While they may be desperate and they may be grasping at straws, if they can get the regulators to seriously look into this matter that doesn’t make it any less of an issue for OTM agents. Particularly due to the way that AM is structured (as a mutual and not as a PLC), there has always been the risk of liability for the members, not just the entity itself. If Zoopla is willing to file their own complaint and use their war chest of cash to lobby the regulators to investigate, this could turn really ugly really quickly. Yet another reason I’m happy watching this from the sidelines for now.
Nah, I just don’t see the win for Z on this one, in fact more so the damage would be beyond belief. Lets say they [Z] did win…… do you think the OTM agents would go back?….
Z would kiss good bye to them forever and would any (non OTM agent) want to be with a company/website which you now know will take legal action if you decide to try something different and better for your own business, just because it does not suit them.
They would be better concentrating on their existing customers, delivering results and perhaps just hoping OTM fails on its own.
When have we [agents] ever lost a property to another agent and then threatened them with court because the new agent refused JA or do we laugh because they still failed to sell it with the next agent.
Sometimes being humble works and I for one prefer to get that property back by heartfelt we want to make it better and show you what we are about. I get the one other rule may be preventing Z from doing this now, but the majority dropping them was only because they did not deliver a product as good as RM did/do.
I agree with all your points. 100%. Only problem is if AM keeps ramping up the rhetoric against Zoopla to the point that ZPG feels like they won’t get those customers back in any event, they may look to extract whatever value they can however they can, even if it ensures they will lose customers because of it. Not saying it’s the right strategy from Zoopla, but the problem is the regulators have a mind of their own and once they are involved no telling what might happen!
I will just say two things ukprop. Firstly would you really want to keep your business with a firm like Zoopla now? and secondly read the article a few below this one: If you are an independent agent you are creating the profits for your corporate competitors who, in turn, go out and quote the lowest fees in the market because like their portal friends its all about the numbers!
Exactly right on all fronts there. On Zoopla winning agents back, I think any chance of that has gone because of the way they have conducted themselves (albeit, they have been left no choice so they have to fight, it just could have been done a bit more eloquently) and more importantly, the agents that have come off have not had their business affected and realise they actually didn’t need to be on both portals in the first place. Hopefully more agents will realise this and in fact, realise they don’t need to be on either of them! PORTALS DONT SELL HOUSES, PEOPLE DO!
Still silence on the number of leads being generated by OTM. Anyone with any sense would expect ZPG to come out fighting, particularly given the holes in the OTM ‘story’ which came about supposedly to clip the wings primarily of RM and their high fees. However, as time goes on it is apparent that this is a play in 2 parts – the first Springetts long held grievance against Alex Chesterman, which whilst paying him a £600k salary (nice work if you can get it), is enabling the founder members to drive down the value of independent agents so they can go on an acquisition spree (these agents being locked into 5 year contracts with poor leads) enabling them to dominate the EA market…surely anyone can see that. Similar thing happened in the travel industry in the late 90’s – disruptive technology and decreasing margins led to a ‘consolidation’ which saw largely independent travel agents dispaear from the high street to be replaced solely by the ‘Big 4.’ I don’t believe this is beyoinf the realms of possibility here.
I do, simply because there is a fundamental difference between Travel and Estate Agency. Travel is retail, Estate is service selling, that is a big barrier to entry and also corporate dominance.
@ Truthbetold…….sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but your comments are a bit dated and somewhat irellavent now. Do try and keep up.
The only way to stop RM and Zoopla increasing their fees forever is to have a viable alternative. RM and Z are plcs and the City will demand continuing growth every year and you know what that means.
They already have everyone signed up so the only way they can increase profits is by charging more and more every year.
When RM say that they are going to increase rates by 10% you can’t say no. Unless of course OTM is out there as a viable alternative. It really is in our hands as agents to get OnTheMarket to No 2 then No 1.
We have not seen a drop in overall leads since we joined and are receiving good OTM leads. A serious buyer/tenant will look as all the major portals so you won’t miss them by dropping one.
Time to Grow some fence sitters
“Time to Grow some fence sitters”
Trust me – we don’t need to grow any more fence sitters – we need to get them OFF the fence!
I climbed down/jumped/fell/was pushed – and I’m still here!
The sky has not fallen on me.
Despite my competitors’ best efforts, I have lost NO instructions as a direct result.
My name is PeeBee… and…
…I… am
…an…
…AM…
Member.
There. They say admission is the hardest part.
PeeBee I just liked your post, then logged out and liked it again;-)
Good to hear it Peebee! Although I did enjoy the few ‘moments’ we enjoyed on here (wait for the moment jokes).
Getting in is easy PB, you just need to make contact with then 😉
Now you are on board, how about a puss to get us to the next level and drop the other portal? That could really set things on fire and I think striking early could be the way forward. Demonstrate that actually, we can live without any of them, not just one of them………
push! Love this site though, not only do you get pulled up for non-existent swear words, now it tells me, I quote “- ERROR: Your comment was too short. Please try to say something useful” when I just typed push. In all fairness, it’s not the first and it won’t be the last time I’m asked to do that!! 🙂
“Demonstrate that actually, we can live without any of them, not just one of them………”
Without ANY of them? You mean we should all drop ALL portals… including, therefore, OTM?
Okay – will do.
Jeez I just wish you guys would makes your minds up… in:out – shake it all about!
The ‘moments’ continue… ;o)
RM & Zoop dear boy! :). Mind you, now you have got me thinking……..
Their share price is 32% off peak, price of £1.85 valuing the biz at £776m or thereabouts. Their shareholders will not be happy hence the war of words. For comparison Rightmove are trading at £26.50 valuing the biz at £2.5 billion! This is a reduction over the last year of 5% although they have risen 19% since the OTM launch from the low. No wonder they are attacking!!!!
If I were laying in a coffin but still breathing I’m not sure I would be asking for someone to nail down the lid; but thats exactly what Zoopla are doing here. I would imagine there are lots of advertising firms that would love to tell their clients that not only should you advertise with them but that actually its anti competitive and you could be fined for NOT advertising with them. Oh and in addition we will take action against you to recover loss of income if you don’t advertise with us as well!. Gosh bring that on, I would love to start taking action against sellers not using my firm as the biggest in the area telling them that actually they are discriminating against buyers who might have seen their property had they used us and that also by not using us they have caused me loss of income!!
Lawrence, bit of a tip for you here: When your girlfriend leaves you, you don’t get her back by threatening to send the pictures of her naked on your phone, round to all her mates, if she doesn’t come back to you.
“According to advice from top UK law firm, Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP,”
Now, lets change that to “According to advice from top ace contributor Peter”
It is meaningless as Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer LLP do not say if they think there is a case to answer!
Err, excuse me, pre OTM agents had a choice of two portals. Post OTM they have a choice of . . . two portals.
Pre OTM the public had a choice of two portals. Post OTM they have three.
Can anyone, no not anyone, Zoopla, explain to me and everyone else why that is bad?
It’s even good for the local papers, their small ads will be full of In Memoriam notices on the passing of Zoopla.
How about PIE running a competition on what should go on the headstone??
The Z headstone would have estimated dates of death and get it wrong, followed by a tout for “bury yourself here with us – 8 out of 10 corps do”
AM members started their journey complaining about RM’s profits, prices and bullishness in the way they dealt with agents. OTM launched, RM seem to have got stronger now their dominance has been ‘validated’ by the majority of agents choosing to leave Zoopla. Now I hear RM are putting their prices up. That went well…
Sales up 32% Lettings up 38%. Average sale and let average fees for both up 15%. It didn’t go badly….
Boring! It’s interesting that now all comments on here knock Zoopla (admittedly their recent release prompted that…) but wasn’t Rightmove been the enemy for years with their arrogance and price hikes? They’re doing very nicely out of this little lot! Nice one RM.
I think the time has arrived for the following joke:
What’s the similarity between Zoopla and my breakfast?
Yep, they’re both toast
Give it half an hour and a brew and you might notice even more of a similarity!
I would be seething this morning if I was an OTM Agent who, albeit a few in number, had remained with Zoopla – that’s some Loyalty Scheme they operate.
Smacks of desperation considering they still have a much higher number of agents than OTM. It makes you wonder if feedback coming from Agents is that plenty more are ready to jump ship and so far we have only seen the tip of the iceberg
Big gulp! – Zoopla are proper cross! – a month this week since OTM launched, they’ve tried ignoring it, telling everyone its irrelevant, arguing the visitor stats, crying, saying no agents have left the, saying agents have left, saying agents have come back, saying we are all mad…………….like a recently left / soon to be ex wife whos been a horror to live with in a one way marriage that now the old man has binned her has taken up a Chablis habit and drones on to anyone that listens about the 5 million reasons she has come up with why her husband is the worlds biggest b’stard and shouldn’t see the kids despite him being a decent chap just exercising his right to leave the ***** – Jonnie
Interesting point, however, could you have put your point over without the raging misogynism?
@Bryterlater – had to look it up……..bit of a strong word Miss?
Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.
Jonnie
yeah so i’m a guy. turns out not JUST woman can be offended by hateful speech. of all the analogies in the world and you chose that one, speaks volumes for your character, as does the fact that you had to look up the word.
I gave you a ‘like’ thank you for speaking up for the female population or at least the 1st Mrs Jonnie, go and get your self one of those T shirts with the ‘This is what a feminist looks like’ on it it will finish the whole look off for you you big strong masculine dude of a thing! – Jonnie
ahh, those will be the t-shirts you read about in the daily mail, probably the first time you became aware of that word as well? anyways, thanks for the repost below, kind of proves that it was totally off topic and just not needed. 🙂
dont be like that, it was The Sun and I reposted a girl friendly version just for you……well PeeBee but you as well – Jonnie
Yeah, Jonnie – next time imagine yerself in a frock and give it to us from JOANIE’s point of view.
I’ll order a new keyboard in readiness… ;o)
Big gulp! – Zoopla are proper cross! – a month this week since OTM launched, they’ve tried ignoring it, telling everyone its irrelevant, arguing the visitor stats, crying, saying no agents have left the, saying agents have left, saying agents have come back, saying we are all mad…………….like a recently left / soon to be ex husband whos been a horror to live with in a one way marriage that now the wife has binned him has taken up a Stella Artois habit and drones on to anyone that listens about the 5 million reasons he has come up with why his wife is the worlds biggest slag and shouldn’t see the kids despite her being a decent woman just exercising her right to leave the ***** – Jonnie
Can I also add that my comment further down this thread about pictures of your girlfriend, a blatant attempt i might add, to keep the comment of the week title, could equally apply to pictures of your boyfriend on your mobile phone.
Phew that covered it.
@RealAgent Nicely recovered, you don’t want a full time ‘being offended’ Guardian reading, wannabe intellectual getting all bent out of shape……..one really offended me by suggesting I’m a Daily Mail reader, what portal is part of Daily Mail Group? – I’m very upset by it all – Jonnie
Thanks Jonnie, I did worry that perhaps I should have included Cousins for any of our country subscribers, but I hope I got away with the fact that it would fall into of of the two gender alternatives. Well unless of course I have considered favourite livestock….gosh its so difficult not offending someone!
Ear, watts that you be sayin like?
if a ‘wannabe intellectual’ used a word that you don’t understand, what does that make you?
also congrats on reading The Sun rather than the Daily Mail, really getting a picture together of you in my head right now and its a joy! continue using the words *itch and *lag and reading The Sun and not treating woman as equal – it suits you.
@RealAgent – you post didn’t actually use derogatory language and wasn’t hateful in anway. so no need to worry.
Well………you don’t have anything at all to say about the article but happily now you are here Eye has its own in house ‘Diversity & Equality Outreach Coordinator so that’s nice – Jonnie
You say it like diversity is a bad thing? Anyway… I look forward to working with you over the coming months!
Diversity is a GREAT thing – especially the not-so-little-any-more kid with the springy hairdo.
Warning – you’ve got a full-time job on your hands here if you’re our new self-appointed PCP – what you haven’t realised is that our Jonnie’s one of the etiquiettier ones, him being a posh suvverner and all that palarver.
It’s us terminally uncouth Northerners you’ll have all the chew with – trust me…
Don’t go upsetting the meek Jonnie they are named as the main beneficiaries.
An astonishing press release by Zoopla, a real Ratner moment. Any business owner reading it will be completely dumbfounded by it. Where do Zoopla go from here as I genuinely can’t see a way back.
C’mon now Zoopla, it’s time to put your big boy pants on and stop this crying or the other 8,000 odd agents we will give you something to cry about
‘Earth may be impacted by a comet one day which wouldn’t be nice so best resign with us so we can protect you’ ?
Oh my, Im gunna tell the teacher! Wow, It seems agents had a choice to leave Z and were not forced to join OTM therefore cannot see the issue. I do not do JA with certain agents (any if I can help it) but certain ones for a reason, my choice, but does this mean I am up against competition laws based on “use me sole agency and maybe them but no one else!”
Z showing they would rather stiff agents than make up…… erm!
Agents defence all the way through which is fact will be “we chose to drop em and were not forced” Z, give up you clowns.
Sorry… but didn’t the ‘one other portal rule’ – which didn’t apply in many cases as not all Agents subscribed to BOTH the ‘duopoly’ (credit: Robert May c 2011/12) in the first place – actually CREATE A ‘COMPETITION’?
“RM or Z – let the best ‘man’ win.”
Guess there’s always one gobby scrapper that can’t fight anywhere near its weight and needs to resort to dirty tricks…
Quite frankly Zoopla’s “she took my skipping rope in the playground” stance is becoming a tad boring now. You’re clearly a damaged business and fear the inevitable. This is understandable, but the constant need to criticise/instill fear Agents Mutual, the OnTheMarket brand and its members is nothing short of desperate. Does Zoopla really think if the rule were to be relaxed we’d all come flooding back to a portal, who openly touted our businesses with letters encouraging a switch to an agent whom advertised on their site? You may have short memories, we do not!
We were not on Zoopla, but were with RM. We have supported OTM to give us the opportunity in future to enable us to break from our self inflicted enslavement to RM due to their unrestrained annual price increases.
Good luck with that. I took a wander across the road a few days ago to see how my old foe was doing post-otm (he went, I didn’t). Not great and from his comments its only a matter of time now.
Personally I want the thing to limp on for the next few months as I’m having a pretty decent time of it…
please can we drop all this. its painful. does no one have any work to do????
we left zoopla as they were ****. if I want to agree to one other portals that’s my decision
all this waffly b*ll*cks is doing my head in!
looks like the walls at Zoopla are a smelly brown colour these days
Expect they are actually purple Eamonn. 🙂
Good luck to Agents Mutual. At some point somebody had to stand up the the dominant portals that everybody seems to moan about and yet do nothing about. They have fleeced Agents to make their own brand so important and neglected the brands of the people that paid to be on them… ultimately that is only a short term business model… here’s to another choice in the industry.
I didn’t join OTM and leave zoopla because of the ‘one other portal rule’ I did it because I have never liked Zoopla as a portal and OTM provided the alternative I needed as a business, regardless of rules I’d have left Zoopla anyway.
Good the have the choice as an agent though isn’t it. RM and Zoopla give full choice, as do every other UK portal and flexibility to agents, so why do AM not? Ah, because “they (AM) don’t care about us” (agents)”.
We did have a choice, we knew that OTM membership allowed just one other portal and we all agreed to that!!
But you’re not an agent are you 1stTimeBuyer?
jog on
“The Competition Appeal Tribunal awarded exemplary damages where it found that the defendants had acted with a specific intent to eliminate a competitor from the market”
I personally think Mr Hall would do well to get considered opinion whether the CMA ought to be reviewing Zooplas acquisitions and actions since 2009, I can think of at least 3 possibly 4 competitor portals that have all been acquired and effectively eliminated from the market. I have tried searching for property on ThinkProperty, Globrix and Findaproperty this morning, all strong portals with considerable property listing choice for consumers, none now exist.
Now THAT sorry mess would keep the CMA busy for a while, Robert.
How much is the fine? 10% of turnover? WOW! – a nice little earner for them as well!
Where would concerned parties lodge our – I mean THEIR – complaints?
10 % 0f 1.25% of 23% of 1.28 million transactions @ £175,000 = £64 million; it is financially better for CMA to be goaded into a lynching party against agents than Zoopla.
The solicitors and barristers will do well that is for sure.
Isn’t it a shame, none of the portal executives have the, time confidence or depth of knowledge to post on here and address their audience and their competitors.
I sat here this morning at 6:30 along with 44 other users who were obviously also eager to see the full detail of this particular story. Hall, Notley and Chesterman will be aware of the impact and reach of both EAT and EYE yet it appears they and their contemporaries are all afraid of engaging with their customer base outside the controlled environment of “any questions” tagged on the end of rehersed and choreographed meetings.
Well, Robert – over on EAT they have their self(?) appointed spokesperson Mr Shinerock to do their w!lly-waving for them, so that side is covered.
Here – that’s another story entirely. Mr Hall’s previous insights and statistical fiction best-sellers have been met with well-deserved ankle chewings and never once has he had the nads (or more likely has too much sense…) to face his tormentors and critics, so I certainly wouldn’t expect to see him now when Z are in full-on assault mode against the very industry that has kept him and his colleagues in very comfortable positions for far too long.
BUT… if Mr Hall DOES grow a pair, I sincerely hope that my old friend Ampersat could be enticed out of retirement for one last matinee performance…
The industry would be a far better place for it! ;o)
I am happy to go belly to belly with any of the aforementioned Executives so no need to call for Ampersat- his work is done. whether it is Mr Shipside, Notley, Hall, Chesterman or Springett they ought to be engaging with posters and the agents they represent.
Greatest respect, Why would any of them want to engage with a forum that they do not have control over?
As much as you/we/I disagree with policies they have a business to run and getting involved in a war of words or policy will only cause them damage.
If i was any of the above i would not want to justify my business in an arena i do not control. No head of a major business would.
I appreciate that but should everyone in a company be exempt from communicating with its customer base?
A some point on the hierarchy there ought to be PR/ Customer service or Customer Support staff who deal with customer issues otherwise it becomes very easy to don the La La I’m not listening ears and simply ignore customer feedback. A strong social and business media policy demands that if one is using social or business media for promotion it ought to be used for defence too. Of course it is fraught with the danger of getting Peebee’d but that simply demands knowing what you are doing or saying.
If you were the head of any of those businesses would you allow your staff to manoeuvre the business into such conflict with your customers and allow those staff immunity from the chaos being caused?
They have these people they are called ‘Reps’
only problem is they hear the same complaint time and again, management know about it but dont care as does not fit with their plan 😉
That isn’t really good enough is it? I thought that mentality stopped with General Melchett!
Reason you thought of General Melchett and he was so iconic is because unfortunately its all too true!
Funny I was only discussing the effectiveness of character analogies this morning when someone commented about me likening Sarah Beeny to Fagin, I hadn’t actually said that but the comment hit home and they made the connection.
80%. Yes, eighty percent is the amount by which Z tried to increase my monthly subscription last September. After we threatened to cancel our contract they then generously offered to reduce the increase to a just 20%. This at a time when the bank rate was 0.5%, inflation at about 2.3%, and house prices rising at about 5%. We still cancelled our contract, so come and get me, Z, because we have gone with OTM instead. Try explaining your own business methods to the CMA.
Yes, only problem is that the regulators review corporate purchases at the time of acquisition to determine if the consolidation poses a threat to free competition in the industry (with eyes wide open to the fact that those businesses may be rolled into and rebranded as the acquiring entity), and in all those cases they decided that the benefit of having a strong credible competitor to Rightmove outweighed the loss of competition inherent in losing those brands. The problem with Agent’s Mutual is that the regulators may take the view that through collusion of agents on the local level it serves to DESTROY the strong credible competitor to Rightmove without offering a suitable replacement. Not saying that’s what it is, but there’s always that risk.
Agents are not in competition with zoopla in the first place it seems so I find it hard to see how they could ever be deemed to be behaving in an anti-competitive manner. They are not in the same commercial sphere ?
I think that I’ve read it correctly then agents getting together in a room and deciding en masse which portal to drop is ain’t competitive . It’s like all the supermarkets getting together and saying let’s all buy mile from x but only offer y for a price . I’ve said all along that the AM ship is steering through some muddy waters and I’m glad I’m not on board. I’ve said along that their one other portal will have to be dropped anyway if they get to market size comparable with their competitors so I will sit back and see what happens …
Danny’s right here. Let me ask you this–if Agent’s Mutual is OK then is it OK for every EA in a certain area and decide to start charging a fixed 2.5% fee? Or to unanimously decide to cease all advertising in the local press? Just because AM wasn’t successful in getting 100% conversion from EAs, doesn’t mean what they are trying to do (get everyone to drop Zoopla) is any different. And because the Agents themselves are members of the mutual, what “they are trying to do” is actually what “you, the members, are trying to do,” and thus the potential issue.
Agents already do this. Its just they cannot get 100% commitment in their areas which is why fees are driven down.
Of course they do, but that doesn’t make it legal…
Also means the world not perfect and business is business…….
That sounds like the pitch that would no doubt have been put forward to monopolies and mergers / department title du jour back in Autumn 2011 when the Zoopla DPG merger was first investigated and the effects of such a merger instantly obvious.
90% of 23% of agencies choosing to come off Zoopla isn’t going to take down Zoopla, it might hurt a bit but more harm is being done to the relationship between Agents and Zoopla by these sort of antics than any commercial decision by Agents.
Yes, agree entirely which is why I find this sudden aggression so odd!
My opinion? this is corporate knives. Someone is to blame, for the time being it is the customers, eventually the penny will drop it is poor board decisions. Two names keep appearing on here and it strikes me it is cornered dog time. There isn’t the skill or aptitude within Zoopla to be competition to the industry so someone needs to wake up and remember they are a service provider.
Well said, Robert!
I’m taking this down to the bottom of the page…
The point here is that is was because the portal market was so fragmented when Z made its acquisitions that there was no effective competition to Rightmove, which was effectively acting as a monopoly. That is why the Digital Property acquisition was allowed. By forcing the one other portal rule, Z’s ability to compete with Rightmove is diminished which may be bad for the agent and consumer.
It does have to be said though that as most agents who have taken part have chosen to participate and drop Z, the CMA may just let this look after itself. I am sure that they will be finding the whole thing quite amusing given that a significant minority of the agency market seem to be pushing to get their monopoly back, which is a pretty remarkable spectacle.