Increased levels of touting are being seen, based around OnTheMarket and whether agents are on both Rightmove and Zoopla.
One online agent yesterday told Eye it has sent out some 2,200 touting letters on that theme.
Online agents are allowed on both Rightmove and Zoopla but banned from OnTheMarket, which launches on Monday.
One agent, based in the north-east, told Eye that he was astonished when one of his vendors was touted by online agent Hatched.
He said he had not known of any of his clients being approached by Hatched before.
The agent stressed that he did not consider the touting letter particularly aggressive. But he did query where Hatched might have got the information that his agency is joining OnTheMarket, and the addresses of the vendors. The Hatched letter is attached.
We asked Hatched for a response and founder Adam Day told us: “We started collating a list in December of agents who had advertised openly that they were going with OnTheMarket.
“We also researched on Twitter to identify agents that had started posting they were going to use OnTheMarket.
“Our regional consultants were also tasked with going around the agents in the towns and cities they are based to see who had OnTheMarket stickers in their window.
“A couple of our agents even phoned the local agents to double check and asked them outright if they had planned to list with OnTheMarket!
“Along with that, we’re also keen readers of Eye who have been helping us out by reporting to us on a daily basis who were going with OnTheMarket!
“Because we have a network of agents, they were able to spend time identifying the properties over the quieter Christmas period, either by driving past them, or using tools like Google StreetView to identify the addresses. It’s very easy to do.
“So far we’ve sent letters to around 2,200 addresses to advise sellers to check with their agent to see if they are dropping either Rightmove or Zoopla, therefore diluting their marketing and in turn, their clients’ chances of selling.”
Comments (94)
Looks to me like Mr Day has been far too easily let of the hook on this one thanks to the story dropping out of sight.
He will no doubt be letting out gasps of relief.
But before you think the coast is clear, Mr Day – THE SECOND you slink out from below that rock… I'll be waiting to gnaw at your ankles.
The Battle that we are in Ladies & Gentlemen is for the Heart of Real Estate Agency… not to succumb to the Fast Profit Makers & Takers that spring up in the hope of Fast Buck Heaven or The Duopoly that want you to feed them. The Battle is to show that being Real Estate Agent and making a profit can be done honestly! The Touters just display their desperation to try and be an honest estate agent… the difference is they don't attempt to open the door honestly… they try to slide under it!
Only three days ago on the story surrounding this bloke's resignation from NAEA I wrote "…Mr Day doesn't usually so much as scratch his rear without sending out a press release hoping for column inches – so it is little wonder why so many are sceptical of his potential REAL agenda. I'm kinda hoping that in THIS instance this isn't the usual f***wittery (credits: Johnny) from The Daymeister and he's actually being genuine. We will probably never know – until he re-joins, that is…"
Today, further to the article above and in reflection of Wednesday's, I admit to having serious doubts now and I'm in full 'PeeBeeing' (credits: Robert May) mode – so I apologise in advance to all that have to cast eyes on my ramblings… but it simply has to be done as there might be some shenanigans here to which only Mr Day can deny or admit to.
So… to Wednesday. In his seemingly passionate letter to NAEA President (which I admit originally had me reaching for the tissues and I felt a degree of admiration for the guy as a result…), Mr Day states "My decision is an inevitable one, made in light of the NAEA’s continued backing of soon-to-launch property portal, OnTheMarket, which is refusing to list online estate agents.
Your stance creates a conflict of interest for estate agencies such as Hatched… which, for reasons unknown to us and to the detriment of consumer interest, are banned from featuring on OnTheMarket…" and follows with "It appears that your solution is to support the creation of a portal which has been set up by high street agents in an attempt to protect themselves from a growing number of DIY agents, but that completely disregards… agents… such as ourselves, rather than create a portal… that ultimately, benefits rather than disadvantages homeowners."
Now – here's my problem – and it's a mahoosive one. YESTERDAY'S news is that he is scoring yet more column inches – this time he's been unmasked as the villain of the show because he is sending blatant touting letters to vendors whose Agents are going to be displaying property on OTM. His justification comment – "So far we’ve sent letters to around 2,200 addresses to advise sellers to check with their agent to see if they are dropping either Rightmove or Zoopla, therefore diluting their marketing and in turn, their clients’ chances of selling.”
Well, Mr Day… you've just blown apart – and not for the first time – ANY miniscule degree of respect I may have foolishly allowed myself to award you. It is CRYSTAL CLEAR that as recently as TWO DAYS AGO you were more than miffed that you weren't invited to the AM party because you are classed, CORRECTLY, as "an online Agent". And HOW can I say that you are correctly classed as such? Simples – from the h@tched.co.uk website please note the following:
1. the Explorer tab displays "The Original Online estate Agents"
2. Your homepage states
a) "This video reveals exactly how, as online estate agents, we can…";
b) "Join one of the fastest growing estate agents in the country…"
c) "We are the only online estate agents to have employed regional consultants with many years of estate agency experience…" Oh – just a reminder, Mr Day – FIVE TIMES NOW I have asked for evidence of the depth of "experience" your Regional Consultant has for my patch to which I have received NOT ONE LETTER of response – please count this as the SIXTH request…but as per usual I won't hold my breath…
d) "Online Estate Agents, H*****d – What's it all about?"
e) "As one of the original, and still one of the largest online estate agents in the UK…"
f) Do I REALLY need to continue? If so – there are DOZENS of references littered over the site to chuck at you…
SO miffed, in fact, that the dummy was supposedly spat out and your resignation tendered (or not, as may be the case – your website is currently down but I noted earlier you were STILL displaying the NAEA logo) to Mr Hayward. Yet TODAY, it's all about telling Agents' customers that being on OTM "…could have a major impact on the marketing of your property and consequently, the chances of selling your property." SO WHY, Mr Day – did you so want to be on the site in the first place? IF, as per your own description, "…agents listing with OnTheMarket are not increasing your chances of finding a buyer – they are decreasing your chances of finding a buyer…" – WHY did you (and are you still…) make such a song and dance about NOT being able to play with the other Agents' ball?
Oh – and it has to be said that you and I have long been at loggerheads over "statistics" – and this latest steaming pile of ******** you've cobbled together and published is by far the worst case of your head not being capable of getting round numbers. You clearly state in the touting letter that RM attracts 92million 'visitors' a month – and that 70% of them turn to RM first. You then go on to state that Z attracts 40million 'visitors' a month – and that some 31% of those don't even visit the other. You then somehow twist and turn together those figures and out slides – steaming and sloppy, is the bound-to-be written in the history books as classic ***********: "So as you can see, if your agent cuts out even the smaller of the two, they are potentially cutting your property off to nearly a third of buyers." WHAT?? No – I SEE different figures. When I went to school, I was taught that taking 12.4 as a percentage of 92 gave you approximately 13.48% – which, by the way, is ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY PERCENT LESS than the percentage you claim it to be, Mr Day. Give me a nudge if you still don't get it and I'll send you the workings out.
But what has REALLY made my day (no pun intended) – is that I think I've been handed a lightbulb moment. Doesn't happen often – so I'm going to enjoy it for what it is. Your 'resignation' – and its' timing – the news about NAEA supporting AM has a good inch of dust on it now. WHY THIS WEEK? It wouldn't be, by any minute scrap of possibility, because the NAEA might well view the touting letter you have sent bounding out to homes all over the UK as a scandalous breach of their written professional standards – and haul your @$$ in to Arbon House for what would be most likely instantaneous expulsion from The Association… so this would then become no more than a "walk before pushed" strategy engineered to score maximum impact would it?
I'd hate to think that this could be looked back on, and future articled be entitled "More smoke and mirrors from Mr Cloak-and-dagger."
Feel free to categorically deny that such would or could ever be so much as even hinted at, Mr Day – and let's put this one to rest…
I think it's the Longest Post PeeBee… and that takes into account me!… however I love a post that is delivered with a solid wedge of heart & fact and is a clear invite to the Purveyor of P*ss to respond in detail and argue, defend or advance their position with fact versus fact! I think we know however that The Day Slime-ster will continue supping from the same empty glass in the lonely corner of the Lying B****** Tavern that he frequents! I have no problem with differing views, I really don't…bhowever when the Department of Blatant Lies fires up I have a real problem. To all the real Estate Agents out there… rise above this… make sure you drive home the difference that a real estate agent makes!… 3 of my clients this week have let me know and offered to give me Touting Letters/Leaflets/Postcard and a very lengthy Touting Brochure!… the satisfaction for me is their skin crawls as much as mine when they receive this unsolicited trash from people?… who trying a slime ridden path towards being a real estate agent!… the thing is… trash like that remains trash… my clients display their disgust for that style of approach and a real recognition for the real estate agency service that we provide and that is clearly focussed on their best interests. Words, brochures, websites, leaflets DO NOT make a real estate agent… that is just part of The Marketing Merry-go-round. Most real estate agents can prove their worth… and those that dance but don't deliver are usually found out! They can't all be caught however the genuine heartfelt Thank You Cards that are sitting in my offices tell me that Real Clients appreciate Real Service… many are grateful to learn that a Real Estate Agent/Estate Agency exists!… that the stereotypical estate agent is a creation from another era. When I travel home after work I take immense satisfaction knowing that the profit that I make is made honestly!… that's what a real estate agency must be built on.
Pheobee, you do more to uphold standards in this industry that all at Arbon House and Great George Street combined! Is there no spivery you can't see straight through?
Just some final words… as OnTheMarket.com opens for business next week with a substantial amount of stock from Day 1… it reminds us that estate agents made both Rightmove & Zoopla by placing property on The Duopoly websites… the same estate agents have, are & will remove property from The Duopoly… and so OnTheMarket.com will grow and become what estate agents really wanted… just an Online Shop Window… estate agents will go about their business of selling properties, helping clients buy property etc… knowing that their clients properties are advertised online at OnTheMarket.com which is part of the service estate agents provide. The only people that really care about The Duopoly are all those feeding off it, Directors, Managers, Staff, Investors, Analysts etc etc etc and of course it is The Duopoly that feed off estate agents! Estate Agents aren't actually with OnTheMarket.com to fill their pockets unlike The Duopoly Feeders… they just wanted an Online Shop Window to advertise property! If you keep kicking something it will eventually react… The Duopoly?!… you just kept kicking! …welcome OnTheMarket.com It will be Day 1, Week 1, Month 1, Year 1 and it will move relentlessly forward if the UK Estate Agency Market has the common sense to see through the Magic Potion Duopoly Sellers… as we use For Sale Boards to advertise properties, we don't pay for Magic For Sale Boards?, we just pay for For Sale Boards! …and so it is with our Online Shop Window, we just want to advertise property, not to become apparently the feature attraction of what is a Magic Profit Show, a Circus of Money Making… we just don't see that we are The Clowns in the collapsing car with the doors falling off, everyone is laughing at The Clowns. UK Estate Agents?… have respect for yourself, your business, your clients… get on with estate agency and use OnTheMarket.com for what it is… an Online Shop Window… no Circus, No Clowns… just a website that homebuyers & Homesellers can go and visit because they just want to buy, sell or rent a home. Does The Duopoly run your business or Do You?
" does the duopoly run your business or you" …. Remind me again what the terms of doing business with Springett are… He restricts your advertising … He insists that you dual brand all your materials … He demands a 5 year contract… That's right … Power to the people … Does the duopoly run your business … No , Springett does . I'm not a megafauna of the portals but I respect them as businesses and the fact when they entered the market it was on their own heads. How much "skin in the game" has Springett got, will he lose his house if it fails ?
There was a time when forums like PI were constructive and an asset to companies and the public, but it is becoming very clear that it is going the way of that other web publication, down hill. I don't think I have ever seen so much nonsense by TROLLS. None that have an objection has showed any alternative or even produced a shred of evidence to support their negative views, regardless of being right or wrong. Its worse than watching squabbling children from adults who should know better. Extremely petty. So if you haven't got anything positive or constructive to say, clear off to whatever rock you crawled out from.
I must say that Adam has a point, why are the rest of you wasting so much time on here during the day? I'm sure the vendors you promised the world and assured you'd spend every second of the day trying to sell their house for as much as possible would love to see what you actually do all day. Roll on Monday zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz change the record
74 comments on a story about Adam Day and most of you are failing to mention Adam Day! How is is possible to fail so totally at self promotion?
Well thats 75 unless I mention something about it being near the end of the day, in which case I guess that would be 74.5 and in fact ironic in many ways.
What a ridiculous thing to say Tike Nick. Where on earth is the self promotion?
Ros contacted me yesterday to say she had been sent a letter by an agent that one of their clients had received, and Ros wanted a comment from me.
We didn't send the letters out and then let PIE know what we had done hoping it would be published. One of 'your own' on the high street has created this and made it into a story.
It's a complete non-story as far as I'm concerned. This is simply a marketing strategy, and I didn't think it was the sort of thing that might be newsworthy. Obviously it is though, because it's led to 74, 75, 76 comments. How many more…??
PS We're talking to a number of potential clients off the back of the letter. Thank you for joining OnTheMarket – I think it's great 😉
"PS We're talking to a number of potential clients off the back of the letter"…..Hope you do better than "easy chris" of easyproperty in converting them into sales (sorry, not sales, I mean sign ups)….
Did you do numbers at school? possibly went on to do maths,… never mind. 92 million per month for 12 months for 6 years ish you claim 4000 sales. "Dear vendor of a property we drove past at Christmas. Instruct us! our stats show that although there is a 98 % chance we won't sell your home, every time Rightmove reckon their site has been visited 1.7 million times we average 1 sale. That has to be a good thing, init? Tosave you working it out We have hatched a 0.0006% chance of selling your home and saving money."
The thing is Adam if a vendor buys £229 of lotto tickets they have more chance of winning a new home with 5 numbers than selling through you at 1:1.7 million RM views
"One of 'your own' on the high street has created this and made it into a story." You REALLY are a piece of work, aren't you, Mr Day? NO-ONE "created" this other that YOU – although perhaps "engineered" is a more apt word. You knew fine darn well from past articles that sending out such distasteful, unprofessional and downright cheap & nasty (what else should we expect from a firm that works for pennies in a world of pounds…) shenanigans would be brought to the attention of the media – and you knew WHO in the media. You've thrown the lit firework into the room by proxy – and clapped yourself on the back for being such a clever boy – yet another brouhaha you've engineered from a distance. But you're far from being Isambard Kingdom Brunel, George Stephenson or even James Watt. Your engineering skills STILL lack the vital ingredient to make them successful for your needs – the cloak of invisibility. You see, Mr Day – however hard you may try you can't hide the *********** from us – and when WE spot it – we push it in the view of everybody.
Let's call it a spectacular FAIL – and it can join all the others in your box of broken tricks. Nice try… NOT.
Diluting their chances of selling. ha ha ha … that's a bold statement, OTM could prove even more productive than RM or Z so how do they quantify that statement. Besides high street agents didn't find it quite over the xmas period and didn't have time to go looking in other agents windows so jog on.
Adam Day wants to hunt with the horses and run with the hounds. You can't have the best of both worlds! It's not realistic to slag off traditional agency repeatedly and vociferously and than cry foul when that traditional model defend their position with an innovative solution and don't invite you to share it. In fact its naïve to think they would.
I also find his endless preaching about customer benefits more than a bit hollow as though he is some sort of consumer guardian angel and not in business to make a serious profit for himself. All businesses have the purpose to make a profit and can very legitimately charge what the consumer is prepared to pay for their service without being accused of greed or lack of morals. The consumer will soon goes elsewhere if they don't believe a service is of value. Adam Day is interested first and foremost in the same one thing every other business owner is and that for him is to make Hatched successful. He's not a philanthropist. I don't begrudge him his right to try a different way of agency, but spare us the sanctimonious lectures as though you are the voice of the people. You are not. You are the voice of Hatched.
There's a plethora of things on line agents don't do for their clients that allows them to create their cheaper model. I wouldn't suggest that means they don't care about the client, or don't have their best interests at heart, its just giving an alternative option for the client. It's choice. What ever estate agents faults are, Sellers or Landlords can't bemoan the amount of choice they have in almost every town for which agents they want to choose, including on line.
As for the Hatched letter… Well a letter accusing traditional agents of diluting their marketing and in turn their clients chances of selling, coming from an online presence who have no shop fronts, no local paper and magazine advertising, fewer staff per location, less market share in every location, less board presence in every location, amongst numerous other things, is so staggeringly hypocritical its almost funny. Seriously how can they make that claim and not squirm at the same time.
For what its worth I like the On The Market concept, I support it and I'm inclined to think it will work and have joined. I don't have a massive axe to grind with either Zoopla or RM, but I certainly don't feel guilty or a cheapskate or as though I'm doing my clients a disservice for supporting an alterative model. RM and Zoopla, if not challenged, were guaranteed to continue to take financial advantage of their duopoly. But each to their own, I understand others being less confident, its each business owners right to make their own decision.
And finally and idea for Adam and the other online agents so bemused and frustrated by OTM set up. Why don't you all get together and create your own portal for on line agents only, seen as you are so convinced that is the way the industry is going.
Just a thought, but bearing in mind that a lot of agents will be dropping off RM or Z next week, can we all gauge how much of an impact this will have on RM and Z. My point is, there are bound to be statistics flying all over the shop post launch, so we need a real “Before” and “After” picture to see what is really happening – otherwise we will just get bogged down with spin and percentages. Eg a week ago I filled in a table of all the properties listed on RM and Z in my county and my town. I had to do them in price batches because RM will only allow 1,000 properties per search. I will do the same again early in February (I think all our properties drop off RM on the 1st Feb) to see how many properties each website has gained or lost, either side of OTM launch. The RM man reckoned they would lose “between 1% and 2%”. Personally, I think he’s way off the mark, but it would be interesting to compare local, regional and national figures.
IMO its not how many properties drop off RM or Z that is the relevant figure …. its how many visitors drop off RM and Z. I can't see those figures being affected at all in the short term ie., next 3 months, and only marginally in the medium term ie., 3-6 months. If that happens I can see a fair number of OTM non Gold members jumping ship,
Harree, I expect you to disappear from this forum not long after the 26th but, before then, can you enlighten us why you are SOOOOOOOOOO against OTM? Do you not want an agent owned/controlled portal or are you happy with your alleged business being controlled by the City?
Property Pundit, I am entirely behind the principle of an agent owned portal and entirely behind reducing portal costs. However … it is my opinion that AM's one portal ruling is fatally flawed, not enforceable, not in ours clients or the professions best interests, likely to cause damaging media publicity, likely to cause deep divisions among local AM and non AM agents, damage the reputation of our profession further and lead to massive free media publicity for online agents who the media will portray as being excluded purely in the self interests of high fee traditional AM agents. It won't only be AM agents who will be damaged by OTM … it will be ALL agents to one degree or another. That's why I am against it.
Property Pundit, why do think I will disappear off the forum from next week? I'll be here, don't you worry.
Harree. Please come back next week when you understand the marketplace. Self interest?? Now I really can't help wonder who that might be. Surely not internet ONLY agents, Z and RM????
Prop Pundit…..Harree has said that he is not against OTM on a number of occasions, to be fair. I think, unless I've been hoodwinked, that he is one of a very small minority on this forum who is a genuine agent (with no self interest) that is concerned that OTM will prove to be divisive and not in sellers interests due to the one other portal rule. Couple this with some bad experiences connected with claims being made by local agents in his area and you can understand why he is resisting at the moment. I would like to think that he will come on board with OTM (if/when it becomes the portal of choice) and if it doesn't then we will all be back to Rightmove and Zoopla in 5 years time. I think he will join when everything settles down and people realise that OTM is here to stay……..have you seen Day of the Triffids?
wilko, cheers. You have summed up my stance better than I could. It just shows opposite camps can have a opposing views without it descending into the childlike responses of RealAgent in particular.
Oh and of course that retort wasn't childish in the least! A word springs to mind, it opens doors and is often a description applied to butter when using it in a recipe!
RealAgent, yet another childlike comment.
But funny Harree.
One agent in the North east was astonished . He said " I though that only I had the god given right to sell Houses here . I thought that no one would care if I took them off a major portal and all my buddies did the same , then we make our own portal and ban people who sell houses in my area cheaper than me . Then they wrote to my clients informing them that I'd done this " I was less "astonished" when I saw lord Lucan riding Shergar this morning …. What did he think was going to happen
Do Hatched really think they are going to get anywhere with this letter?
Whilst the content may be correct, the tone of it is nothing more than schoolyard finger pointing.
Exactly Danny. he simple letter to send to AM clients would contain this info … Rightmove visits every month – c90 million … Zoopla visits every month c45 million … OnTheMarket visits every month ???? Question Mr/Mrs Seller, choose two out of three sites that you would like your property advertised on … you chose RM and Z? … I am writing to inform you that your current estate agent chose RM and OTM … I you would
Don't know where that "I you would' at the end came from !
OTM hasn't launched yet Harree so of course it doesn't have any "visits". But from next week when most of your areas LEADING agents are on it promoting it and from the week after, beginning to see it on the tv and in the national press, I think you might find that will change.
RealAgent for once you are right … but … its the NUMBER of visits of course that counts. You of course believe 'all serious buyers will hunt out OTM' so OTM should have a few million visits every month as soon as the first TV ad hits the screens. You will be proven absolutely totally and utterly wrong.
Of course I don't think OTM will have millions of hits the first week, but what percentage of visits do you think Zoopla gets thats relevant to my particular market and thats really all that counts for me? Well clearly you won't know that but what I do know is that for a house listed next week, we will have RM enquiries when we need them, we will also have some enquiries i'm sure from OTM by virtue of the fact we are listing with them first and those enquiries will be from relevant buyers out to find a house, rather than the dross of waste of time enquiries that come through at present , mainly from Zoopla.
RealAgent, for your info I am by any performance definition one of the leading agents in my area. 2nd, on total amount of stock, 1st, 3 out of the last 4 months on instructions and the shortest time on the market on both RM and Z. Sorry to take the wind out of your sails.
There you go having to justify yourself to a complete stranger. Inferiority complex perhaps? Haree estate agents are not judged on their stock levels or time on market, one can be influenced by just taking on property at any fee, the second by not getting clients the best price. So perhaps you are not one of the leading agents, you just like to think you are!
RealAgent, one thing you don't suffer from is an inferiority complex. More like an arrogance complex. By capitalizing LEADING in your previous post you are of course acting like a child in implying that I am not … but I am RealAgent, you bet I am.
Ok Harree yes, we can all think of you as a leading agent if you would like us to.
hee hee you crack me up seriously……. c90 million visits, you do know that is not 90 million looking in the same village! obviously you do, but it appears your Agent is looking at the national picture and not the local one………. RM/OTM has MORE property for sale than RM/Z in YOUR village YOUR VILLAGE being the one your buyers will be entering when searching, so it matters not what is on the market down south……would you rather be on the combo with the most stock or the combo with less stock, as people tend to shop where there is more choice and THAT is what changed on Tuesday 27th January! When Z visitors realised it was not a tech blip 1000's of agents swapped for a reason (but the buyers and vendors do not care what that reason is)…………………they only care for WHERE the property is.
I would expect Hatches should pick up a dozen or so instructions but with their very low level of sales success will be lucky to make more than a thousand or two out of the whole process. In the meantime the rest of us, the 98% proper agents will let them get on with it. Keep at it little guys but get ready to say bye bye.
This isn't a tout letter this is a rant about OTM and what seller is going to respond to this petty mans beef about not being allowed to join?!. I suspect that again this is less to do with canvassing but yet again his attempt to keep in the media. Adam little tip for you here: If you want to sell your business then you'll find as much success strolling around canary wharf with a billboard.
Hatched cant compete on some service levels such as subbing as they dont have enough fees in the pot. I hear from agents weekly getting fees up for offering more. People go to agents as they dont have the confidence to do it themselves. Offer and do more and its not hard tk get fees up.
The problem with Hatched is that many budgets offer low fees. Both main portals and many budgets bave just had £millions VC injected to push their 'we can save you thousands message out there' . OTM will need 2-3 times the marketing of RM and Z to sway vendors in to members.
The local AM agents in my area have all gathered together and sent a touting letter makes the following totally unsubstantiated and misleading claims …. "OTM will become the No.1 place for buyers to sell property" (wishful thinking at best, totally misleading at worst) … "All leading agents in the area are advertising on OTM" (the biggest local agent by far isn't and neither are many others – by implication it suggest that agents not advertising on OTM are not "leading agents" – totally misleading) …. The touting letter makes no mention of the fact that OTM agents will be dropping RM or Z giving the impression that OTM advertising is in ADDITION TO not in place of RM or Z (totally misleading). AM agents criticising CW or Hatched need to look inward … your fellow members are playing exactly the same game and, in my area, even more misleadingly. This whole situation is going to get, as others have predicted, very nasty very quickly. AM have started a civil war among EA's that will do absolutely nothing to help our profession.
Haha you are funny Harree…. "Harree the supporter of all letters misleading unless it is against me"!………………….. You cannot call the CW letter as being perfect word for word and then come out and have a pop at a misleading tout from a an agent biting back……forgive me as I don't know you personally and suspect your goal is the same as mine, run a respected and successful business BUT at least keep to the same script…….. I like OTM the concept, support it, hope it works and if it does not hey hoe…….. but touting! don't let it bother you SPEAK to your potential customer! TOUTS end up in the bin!
He's not funny Ric, he's a complete hypocrite. He found it perfectly acceptable for CW to send out letters because it criticised OTM but now because agents have sent letters out claiming they are market leading (the definition of leading being in front) he seems to have a problem with it. By his definition it was acceptable for CW to not spell out that Haart were sticking with RM but suddenly its wrong for the agents in his area to just say they are going OTM (err the same situation in reverse). Hoisted once again by his own petard once again methinks.
RealAgent, you are the biggest hypocrite one here. CW's tout was, as many others on here, factually correct. By comparison the OTM tout in my area is NOT factually correct. My main competitor, an AM agent, is the biggest tout letter sender in my area and it bothers me not a jot … as long as what the say is FACTUAL … if not I'll report it to TS. If SH take legal action against CW I predict the would lose … that was my point. If TS look at my local OTM tout letter I predict at the very least they will deem that the claims cannot be substantiated and will direct that in its current form it cannot be used again. Is that clear Mr 'RealAgent'.
Oh get back in your box Haree they claim to be leading, well as I said what is the definition of that? one who goes into something first! They are factually correct whether you like it or not!
RealAgent, TS will decide on the definition of leading and if they think its ambiguous or non definable they will not allow it. Do you not understand even basic advertising rules? Shame on you.
And I see 6 agents have already liked my original post … are they hypocrites as well RealAgent? Or are we all just not proper real agents like you (by your own definition of course … not ours).
Really Haree?!, you want to bring this down to a "how many likes competition" and from whom? your fellow portal and online only colleagues? How grown up you are! …..In my book the estate agents in your area (or the one you cover) are certainly leading!
This is a big concern. The risk is that this turns into a dirty civil war and hurt all of us.
There is this huge risk that big fat lies are told and if this sticks then we're all hurt. Be so careful in all the claims we make whichever side you're on.
The largest independent agent in our area (by number of offices) has over 20 offices, is around third to fourth on market share in most of the towns where it opertes and has never been on Zoopla. It's way ahead of any online agent and many others that are on both Z and RM. It's not just about where you put your properties. There are so many other important aspects of Estate Agency that unfortunately most online agents just don't get. Agency is 4D not 1D.
Hatched are right & OTM is seriously damaging the TINY bit of credibility estate agents had, it's terrible for the industry and reinforces the stereotype that agents will do literally anything to make a quid.
OTM isn't about making it better/easier for vendors to sell, it's about agents lowering costs to line their own pockets further.
How do we reduce our fees if not by reducing our costs. Since the online revolution, which really took hold in 2008. Agents marketing costs have reduced enormously and fees have reduced from 1.5% to 1%. Paper advertising used to be incredibly expensive, the main weekly advertiser in our area was £1,000 per page per week. For that now all our properties are advertised 24/7 on 2 portals. Zoopla just doesn't generate enough buyers, around 10% of our online purchasers in fact. How many of your actual buyers (completions) originated from Zoopla last year?
About 5% BUT I know that on the market would be 0% and I don't know how many people went on zoopla (because we know Tens of millions do) and then called me via another route. I think if you have never used them great but if you do and you are pulling for your own financial gain, you are doing so at the cost to your customer. And you know what if in 5 years you are saving yourself 500 quid a month (coz that's what we are really talking here) and you pass that saving on to your vendors then happy days. However if in 5 years we are sitting here and you have spent that 500 and more trying to compete with agents that kept both and hit you over the head with it – or you are spending that 500 on a better car then the only people who have lost are your customer.
Oh Outside, please. Talk sense if you are going to come on this site. Please.
Such a clear, well constructed and thoughtful rebuttal newsboy. You highlighted all the flaws in my argument and tore them apart one by one with such an articulate counter that I am now changing my opinion on the matter.
Well done. You've converted me!
And why not The Outsider? We all have to look at out costs and have control of our own busineses, there is nothing wrong with that. We are in business to make money not as a charitable organisations. Beats me how so many people think the portals are the be all and end all of agency! We all managed before R and Z and I'm quite sure that once OTM had suitably 'announced' it's self to the public, they will very soon catch on..
it is painful to see our industry hurt like this. One landlord asked me
"if a spade is a spade, then what is a cabal?
One of my clients made me croissants, coffee and orange juice yesterday… We're only on Rightmove, have been for 11 years
We have been on just as long and find Rightmove the only site for us – for now. We do hope to drop them in about 24 months though.
I think it's all very shameful. I wouldn't go with any firm that approached me by bad-mouthing the competition. Aren't Hatched one of the on-liners throwing their toys out of the pram because they weren't allowed to be on OTM? Well, if they had, then they'd be having to drop one portal as well.
Agreed, the online agents, IMO, desperately need to stop saying how poor the high street agents are (too high charges, not on a particular website) and focus on what THEY can do for customers. When they do this, they may see sellers listen a bit more. As many of us have said before slating the opposition in any business never has worked and never will work in the future.
Wishful thinking wilko. They are well aware that their value-add is price, price, and price. Until the launch of OTM, there has been nothing they could actually say they can do BETTER than a traditional high street agent. Now, however, they can in good faith claim to offer broader online marketing exposure than some traditional agents. You think they're going to let that opportunity to (for the first time) claim the upper hand go unsung?
Given that the nation's property stock is going to be diluted across three portals instead of two from next week, and that all agents are going to be on either one or two of those portals from next week, it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to offer "broader online marketing exposure"… Not straightaway anyway…
Wrong. If I use Zoopla today I will use Zoopla Monday. If I use Rightmove today I will continue to use Rightmove for the forseeable future (since they are losing virtually zero stock). No one uses OnTheMarket today, and the number using it Monday won't be much higher. So yes, straightaway, having your home on RM and ZPG is "broader online marketing exposure" than having your home on some combination of OTM and RM/ZPG. I don't know how that could be any more straightforward.
I would also like to point out since I keep seeing this argument about how "property stock is going to be diluted across three portals instead of two" as some odd sort of justification about how OTM somehow >= ZPG in terms of exposure. If you advertise in a place that has more viewers, it doesn't matter who else advertises there. You can be the only agent in the UK who advertises your homes in the Telegraph or on the sides of buses–just because no one else is there as well doesn't make it a somehow inferior marketing location. More eyes = more exposure = broader marketing reach. Stock levels are unimportant as long as the traffic keeps coming.
@ukpropmaster – "If I use Zoopla today I will use Zoopla Monday" perhaps BUT……………..will you use Zoopla on Tuesday?……. take one of my villages (small but affluent and vibrant) Zoopla today has 35 houses displayed not the 105 it had yesterday – So on Monday will you wonder where 3 agents stock have gone, or accept that 70 houses either sold over night or came off the market all together!….. you may pop on RM granted or may go to where the OTM agents are saying, but eitherway by Tue/Wed and Thu you will stop looking on Z surely?
ukprop. you say "they can in good faith claim to offer broader online marketing exposure than some traditional agents"…but is that enough?……you see, yet again, this latest tout campaign doesn't centre on what Hatched are doing, where they are advertising, and what their proposition is ……it just tells sellers to check whether their current agent is coming off Zoopla or RM as that will harm them. It seems that the online agents' entire approach, on the whole, is how expensive and how bad traditional agency is. The fact is, and it is borne out by the tiny growth figures from the online sector(2%), that the public are quite happy to continue with high street agents at the moment so online agents, in my view, have to change their approach if they are to survive, let alone grow.
Wilko, I'd imagine that figure might get a sudden boost when thousands of agents decide to drop one of the larger portals , I said at the start of this it will have unintended consequences and I believe one of them may be ripping some vendors down this avenue
Danny, cheers for the viewpoint, the only thing that will give them a sudden boost is having a strong all round solution for property sellers, Unfortunately, as is so often said(and proved time and time again), portals (and fees) are not the major deciding factors when sellers choose an agent. Online agents need to recognise this before they enjoy any boost in my view.
ha ha. think agent mutual r the big boys trying to their muscle to exclude progress ?
Well the guys got front in his response. But with Hatched and Countrywide and ghe fact Paul Smith as reported in Eye gave comment that he felt OTM wouldnt be at no.2 for a ydar and at no.1 for 5 years. He was saying that OTM in his as a main Spicer representative was taking off clients homes from the second biggest portal to one that today has no consumer brand awareness.
I can see a lot of threats and legal letters between rival agents come mid/end of Feb
Trevor – what have you got against OTM? It has a very sound business case to benefit the public and agents. What can be wrong with that?
Newsboy , name me 3 things the business case that will benefit the public…go ,just becuase you use words doesn't make them true
1/ An alternative site to have your property displayed on *IF* you don't like RM or Z. (Not everyone does)………. 2/ A website for sellers (who yes are also the public) where the website offers less information about reductions and things which MAY lead to a reduced number of phone calls (I mean Z's extra info could put people off calling) so as a result OTM will have buyers CALL the agent to ask questions and said agent can have a chance to explain the answer!…………. 3/ A website, which IS having 1000's of properties added and NOT 1000's of properties taken off, which you would expect you would rather be on the new ship, not the one with the big hole in it ………….. 4/ A website which has fantastic industry related name which in time could provide useful via google (ie those searching for Property On the market in x, y or z) this could end up being a very important tool for OTM in time ………… 6/ A website which does not have silly products to promote one house as better than the next, thus a clear sign of no intention to have agent charge "Add ons" for products – Just look at RM, "ask you agent about products"……………….
I should add number 6 shows a very definite benefit that they [AM] do not want to encourage agents charging more for things that do not work…. if explained properly you could win a fair few hearts with this one, especially if they [the public] have paid for an enhanced marketing pack with a corp or any agent actually and had no interest based on it was a load of flannel!
There are plenty of alternatives out there, and ones that are free to list, so that is a nothing reason.
Most sellers are also buyers?! And what of 1st time buyers? So you are basically saying OTM is a site for delboy type sellers and agents? Interesting…
Fantastic industry related name, err, next to know one has heard of OTM! How funny.
I like the strap line…. OTM.. "A website that offers less information" (and hides the facts).
Google searches… SEO can be very much brought and costs lots of money, terms "property", "On the market" etc. Hell, I could pay money so the term onthemarket comes higher for my facebook page!
Products = business and consumer choice and supports competition. This is a bad thing???
These are possibly the weakest arguments since tesco said "well we just thought the flavour of horsemeat might be a welcome addition to the palate of the great British customer
You saying the name is a consumer benefit , the fact there is LESS information !!! do you know what a consumer benefit is.I think you need some training … I'll get one of our junior negs to give you a ring
Have you never heard of the expression "less is more"…..have you never had a property on the market for instance and taken photos off the web after little or no interest leaving just an outside shot and then the calls start rolling in to find out more……….. if someone wants to know how long a property has been on the market and the website does not tell you what would you have to do to find out as a buyer?………………….. if a property says it has been reduced 6 times in 6 months, does that read better than it saying nothing about a price reduction? (Think as an AGENT & SELLER who wants their AGENTS phone to ring)………………………… after all the price is the price and any NEW visits should judge the property on what it is today not what it was last week!…………If they want to know about reductions they can ask!……………………and we can say "why? did you want to pay the old higher price?" (said professional and in a nice way you can have a laugh with anyone about their questions, just tell the truth!)………… you say I need training…… I would love to swap details privately so we can compare businesses and I can see if you are indeed worthy of listening to, as I am always open to improvement – But for now……… Would it be better (AS AN AGENT and FOR YOUR SELLERS) if the buyer had to call the agent, rather than have no human interaction in finding certain bits of info out?……… or would you rather you phone ONLY ring for a viewing?
How does it benefit the public?
Hope your appreciate that it was tongue in cheek Ric. I'm sure you run a very successful business as do I . As for the information thing, it's not a consumer benefit. You say think as an agent and this is where the whole thing falls down… I've only sold two houses to estate agents , the rest I sell to the general public . We will see who is right on Monday but my guess is OTM gets some traffic and then drops off again, doesn't remain the site of choice and the property will follow the consumer , not the other way around. It the equivalent of Heinz saying "I'm only going to sell my beans in my own stores and tescos and the public can lump it. When the sales start to fall they will talk to asda and lidl again
danny, a lot of old ground will continue to be covered on forums such as this (Sorry Ros/Nick, not an insult) – everyone with an opinion and if theirs works for them then great …………… But just one thing so I can perhaps let you know how my mind is working in terms of the "consumer" comments ……………………………………… IMO Consumers are my vendors ……..and buyers/house hunters (call them what you will) are without question important to me, as they too will be a vendor for me one day if we have helped their dream purchase go to plan …………………. but then the fact is buyers WILL follow the houses NOT the agent……………. so in a way I don't really care if a website makes a buyer work that bit harder to find out the history of marketing ……. IF it means my consumers (the ones which PAY me and ONLY when I sell ie NSNF) are getting a service where I can talk common sense to them about …….. for instance c90 million hits means NOTHING to anyone sat in their lounge! I wouldn't dream of saying things like this……….. I might consider telling them that perhaps 7,000 people searched on a website last week for *your area* BUT then justify if by saying 6500 of them were agents and nosey neighbours aka a WOFT…………. just like I might say I have a mailing list of ? amount of people with perhaps ? prefect matches, but expect there to be just 2 or 3 serious from that number and as I am not paid on viewing levels or internet visits, my ONLY concern is the person who is prepared to offer and BUY that house (Buy being the important bit, as anyone can get an offer, but the right offer?) now we know that person [the buyer] will find the house anyway if they are serious about buying in your area ……. so I would prefer buyers to remember us for having been an agent who called them first or helped with honest answers and not the one where they have no real confidence we assisted in anyway on their house purchase…… this is the danger danny of the internet and too much info…… it is slowly but surely convincing buyers or certainly showing them that perhaps all we do is arrange a viewing!!…anyway evening to all and enjoy your weekends.
"very sound business case to benefit the public and agents"
this hurts sellers…..less people see it, less people can buy it, less chance of selling it at good price? No?
Look at the site – no silly adverts, no distractions and maximum impact for sellers – Now why didn't anyone else think of that??
Newsboy, you imagine that people committing to buying property are all going to be out off at a moments notice by shiny things , it's just silly
Put off that should read
Agents mutual were meant to be a protested against strong arm tactics from rightmove and zoopla and aginst their monopoly, so having the one other policy just makes them as bad or worse than what they are trying to replace. and surely the one one other rule is anti-competitive, is it even legal ?
Newsboy – I wish OTM well, BUT to me there are 6-7 obvious flaws
Pretty clever idea I think, spinning it to their advantage.
Why is the NAEA involved in this project – surely their job is to promote and protect the reputation of agents, rather than spearhead a project which could leave the reputation of 'traditional high street' agents in tatters?
what would Mary Portas say!!
Very clever, but that's also 2,200 more people that now know about OTM that probably didn't before.