Agents turned up to an Agents’ Mutual meeting last week – only to find it had been called off.
The meeting, in north Devon, had been agreed by the area rep Donna Beaufoy before she went on holiday, leaving agent members in the area to invite other agents along from guest lists.
When she got back, she found that few invitations had actually been issued and it was agreed to cancel the meeting.
However, agents who had not been on the invitation lists but knew of the 4pm meeting anyway, turned up.
Agents’ Mutual commercial director Helen Whiteley said: “Unfortunately, this is the second time this has happened. We have tightened up our systems and will do so again.
“Donna was horrified to hear what had happened and we can only say that we are extremely sorry.”
Comments (116)
"That's just an aside, Paul H – the REAL clincher here is "… also because perhaps there is a perception that you should be on the portals even though you may not need to be." Nail:head – got it in one! I think there you have just "defined yourself by where you advertise","…Oh contraire mon ami, what I have said is that customers believe I should be on it, when the truth is i'm currently getting nothing out of Zoopla, granted in the last few months my quality enquiries have come mainly from Rightmove. But in truth no one asks if I am on Zoopla and I mean no one. But I will concende that currently I have to be on rightmove, but this is precisely what we are trying to change with AM old boy, I appreciate it won't happen overnight but it will happen!
"…what I have said is that customers believe I should be on… Zoopla… But I will concende that currently I have to be on rightmove…" I rest my case – there is simply no more I can say to destroy your own argument than you have in those 25 words.
I said "CURRENTLY I have to be on rightmove". Stop being silly old boy!!
Paul H – I'm NOT being silly – when will you open your eyes and mind to that? You HOPE that one day you will be able to dump RM. You admit that your customer base EXPECT you to be on Z. The coffee is there – why can't you smell it?
They currently expect me to be on rightmove but NOT Zoopla. Your clutchin at straws PeeBee and you know it:-)
Matey – we are BOTH clutching at straws in this debate. The truth is… neither you nor I know what is going to happen come 1/1/15. The main difference (…thankfully…) is that only ONE of us hopes to H£ll that he is right and the other wrong.
Anyways, Paul H – seeing as you and I seem not to be swinging handbags at each other today (which I much prefer, by the way – you and me being 'colleagues in industry and all…) – can you answer me, in your opinion (seeing as you fully condone no-one from AM Towers lowering themselves to interact with we mere plebs on EYE… ;o) ) and being 'in the now, as you are, what does "National coverage across all segments" actually mean? It is bullet point #6 on the AM advert to the right of this page and it means squat to me. It's not a Geordie phrase, that's for sure…
Thanks in advance. Have a good weekend ;o)
"what does "National coverage across all segments" actually mean?"…You got me there I aint got a Scooby(that's cockney by the way!)
Have a good weekend old boy!
We Geordies are naturally multi-lingual, Paul H – we use Scooby as well! Dunno about 'dahn Sarf, but it serves two completely different purposes here 'oop North… ;o)
"At least ill be remembered for SOMETHING"….you'll be remembered for your PeeBeeing PeeBee, as well as dishing it out and taking it back right;-)
Yeah – I guess I'm always going to be known as "the demented Jack Russell that Mr Hendry couldn't shake off his ankles", Paul H – no matter what he tried. I poke; I pry – I nibble and gnaw. MOST of the time – it's because I see or feel that whatever I am 'PeeBeeing' (thanks to 'Ampersat'… bless his cotton socks… I'm now a verb!) is somehow 'wrong' – it's NOT the new 'Hovis' that it's being heralded as. But in the case of other matters I turn the screws on – AM being just one of them – it is because I want to know whether or not they are actually 'right'… and by "right" I mean for the industry and its customers. I want reassurance. I want convincing. I WANT TO BUY – 'SELL' IT TO ME!!
You, mon ami, are an AM trailblazer – as are many others – and I applaud that in SOME respects. I wonder, though – would you as readily climb into the latest model car with your passengers – even though the model has never been road-tested on anything other than a simulator (but the company assured you that on the simulator it performed pretty well… most of the time, anyway…), and fly off down that brand new highway you've heard all about? Of course, you've been assured by the roadbuilder that this is the best and safest road ever, so what better way to give the new bullet-on-wheels a run for its money.
They just haven't told you exactly where the highway leads… because it isn't actually finished yet and they don't know where the potholes will be – or how many there will be. They actually WON'T know until YOU tell them about them.
NONE of that fazes you in the least.
I, on the other hand, am that boring old f@rt who will trudge up and down the same old highway in my trusty old Volvo because I know where it goes and that my passengers WILL get to their destination like they do any other time. The road isn't perfect; the car rattles and wheezes a bit and costs a lot to keep on the road – but my passengers love it.
UNTIL I am convinced with overwhelming evidence that the new whizzbang motor IS the 'right' vehicle for the job, and that the super highway will get my passengers – and me – to where we all want to be… I'll continue gnawing, Paul H. Sorry – it's who I am, and in this instance where I am – more 'at the roadside' than 'on the fence'. ;o)
This all depends on one's definition of an estate agent PeeBee. I do not believe that you are looking at AM with estate agent specs on, nor for that matter with the 'customers' specs on. An estate agent should not be defined by where they advertise, I simply do not understand why you can not acknowledge this.
Okay – answer me this (or maybe these – let's see…) If I'm not looking at this with either an Agent's OR customer's specs on – whose specs am I wearing? You say "An estate agent should not be defined by where they advertise…" I fully accept, acknowledge (there… your 'sale' for the day, matey! ;o) ) and agree with you there. Always have: always will. SO… that being the case… why do you advertise on the portals you subscribe to but voice your 'hatred' of so publicly?
"If I'm not looking at this with either an Agent's OR customer's specs on – whose specs am I wearing?"….I don't ***** well know mate, but my view an estate agent would not look at Rightmove and Zoopla as the be all and end all to being an estate agent. Ric for me has hit the nail on the head as to how to be successful as an agent and for me it is not just being on web portals.
"why do you advertise on the portals you subscribe to but voice your 'hatred' of so publicly?"…I'm on the web portals because it helps to generate leads (but not all of them), also because perhaps there is a perception that you should be on the portals even though you may not need to be. I hate them because currently they hold me over a barrel and have done for a few years, but not for much longer.
"… but my view an estate agent would not look at Rightmove and Zoopla as the be all and end all to being an estate agent." AGAIN, we concur totally. Isn't this fun? Who DOES look at the portals in that way? Certainly not me…
"…I'm on the web portals because it helps to generate leads…" Okay – let's look at that. By "leads", do you mean instructions, or buyers/tenants? Are these 'leads' that you would 100% deffo NOT have got without portal presence? Have the 'leads' you have converted actually paid for the cost of the portal? That's just an aside, Paul H – the REAL clincher here is "… also because perhaps there is a perception that you should be on the portals even though you may not need to be." Nail:head – got it in one! I think there you have just "defined yourself by where you advertise", mate. You state "…they hold me over a barrel…" – HOW? YOU have the properties on your books – not them. YOU can decide when and where to advertise them, can't you… and YOU say that you don't look at RM and Z as the be all and end all of being an Estate Agent… so which is it?
You, Agents 'X', 'Y' & 'Z' down the street (insert ANY street in ANY town) have allowed – AIDED AND ABETTED, truth be known – the animals to become the star of the show. But what you're (AM Membership-wise, that is…) planning to do here is to stop feeding, petting and pampering ONE animal in the hope that BOTH will roll over and die.
I use the phrase again – it just doesn't compute with me (…and my 'unique' viewpoint… ;o) ).
PeeBee, I've given you the benefit of the doubt a few times, I don't know why I bother!
Because you see me as your pet challenge, of course. And maybe you see it as a way to get the post numbers up on AM-related articles – who knows. If you're posting crazy theories – then so am I! ;o)
Pet challenge, no more of a gullable Geordie old boy!
Whatever – proves the theory that opinions are like backsides – we all have one.
Oh – and it's gull-I-ble by the way.
Whatever – proves the theory that opinions are like backsides – we all have one. Oh – and it's gull-I-ble by the way.
EEK ;)! how did that happen? naffin Windoze 8. Now the game is up :0!
Ahhh well – never bought into the flippin' Moon Landing hoax anyway… who in their right mind would?
"Whatever – proves the theory that opinions are like backsides – we all have one. Oh – and it's gull-I-ble by the way."…Your spelling has always been A1 PeeBee.
At least I'll be remembered for SOMETHING, Paul H. Oh – that and stringing threads out to over 100 posts… ;o)
Well… seemingly the AM Collective have abandoned this thread. Is there any other 'fence sitters' – or just simply ANYONE – out there that would like to add their own thoughts, concerns or indeed any other comments for discussion? An awful lot of material has been laid down here by genuinely interested parties. What I find absolutely amazing is, despite countless articles being published here on EYE – and AM actively pushing Members to subscribe to the site – NOT ONE person who can represent Agents Mutual in an official capacity has so far deemed the audience worthy of any interaction. Is this how they like to work – everything by proxy? Surely when an industry big-hitter like Eric Walker, with 80+ offices under his control, shows his hand on this forum it is only professional – and courteous – for a key member of AM to respond and enter into some form of dialogue with him?
Beggars belief. Let's see what the PR machine spews out as a counter – or, as Paul H suggests, will we see nothing as they've gone into 'stealth mode'… because they're doing so well already without Mr Walker etc signed up.
"Surely when an industry big-hitter like Eric Walker, with 80+ offices under his control, shows his hand on this forum it is only professional – and courteous – for a key member of AM to respond and enter into some form of dialogue with him? Beggars belief."…Do you really believe that a representative of AM should come on to this website to answer questions? Of course the other option would be for Mr Walker or any other agency owner to ask their local AM representative to personally come to their office so that all can sit around a table and discuss in further detail accompanied by a cuppa and some chocolate hobnobs. A bit more professional wouldn't you say.
"What I find absolutely amazing is, despite countless articles being published here on EYE – and AM actively pushing Members to subscribe to the site – NOT ONE person who can represent Agents Mutual in an official capacity has so far deemed the audience worthy of any interaction."…In fact the only time I can remember a representative of a portal coming on here was when LPI was launched and there was an orchestrated and controlled discussion between Ampersat and Steve Smith. Remember that PeeBee?
"…In fact the only time I can remember a representative of a portal coming on here was when LPI was launched and there was an orchestrated and controlled discussion between Ampersat and Steve Smith. Remember that PeeBee?" Actually, I do – but in a very different way to your recollection, Paul H. Firstly, I think you'll find that 'Steve Smith' is the ex-Poundland guy who's dipping his toe in the water – the LPI chap is GARY Smith. You threw me there for a moment…
So – now to the "orchestrated and controlled discussion" suggestion. By "controlled", do you mean the bit where 'Ampersat' posted "All of a sudden busy, bored or out of your depth Gary?" Is, in your eyes "It is simply rude to walk away from a discussion Mr Smith, you have been given an opportunity to expand details of your service outside the constraints of a few hundred words the article requires to be interesting." in any way, shape or form "orchestrated"? They certainly don't read like that to me – but if the answer to either or both of the above is yes I would dearly love to read your reasonings.
What IS 'interesting', Paul H, is that there was as much, if not more, dialogue between your goodself and Ampersat than between he and Mr Smith. Was yours an equally "orchestrated and controlled discussion" with Ampersat, by any chance?
Because you have made me go back to that thread, I have picked up on a comment from 'wilko', which at the time escaped me. "At the moment, however, the main 2 portals are giving us enough viewings to sell our properties 3 x over so we don't actually need more leads to sell properties." I must have been on an off day – it's a gold nugget I didn't see for all the dirt!
Read the whole comment section again PeeBee, it's not rocket science old boy!
Oh… I totally agree it's not rocket science Paul H – but it's also not 'The Moon Landing Conspiracy' as you would have people believe by your inferences. YOU are making the suggestion of "orchestrated and controlled discussion" – why should I then have to hunt for 'proof'' to bolster YOUR argument? You'd make a pretty p*** poor Prosecution Lawyer with that methodology… Sorry, Paul H – you simply can't throw a lit firework into THIS room then bu99er off out the door and listen for the bang. Mr Hendry tried that trick with me dozens of times – and failed miserably every time except in the respect of looking the prat.
Gosh – you can hear a pin drop… it's so quiet on the AM Front!
Hmmm… no 'wilko' chirping up on this thread? I suppose it's holiday season so may well be sunning it up in Cleethorpes – which would be a bit of a waste as this discussion seems to have got The AM Collective nicely hot under the collar… ;o)
Paul H – in response to "FYI – you still have not put a single convincing point on why all the fence sitters should sign up!" from 'smile please', you said "…..I don't need to, I don't think there are many genuine fence sitters posting on this thread anyway." I would suggest that my previous comment is most relevant here – not many fence sitters WILL post – but as sure is night becomes day they will be reading…
"not many fence sitters WILL post – but as sure is night becomes day they will be reading…" And they will also be able to see what a farce of a thread this is and how people are multi posting under different usernames. Seriously what a joke.
Paul H – please, humour me on this – WHY is this thread in your opinion "a farce"? Which posters do you believe are the same, using a multiple identity?
I am very fast losing any respect I had for you PeeBee
Why – because I ask pertinent questions? And what "respect", Paul H? You don't know me, so how could you possibly have had any respect for me in the first place. I would respectfully suggest that you think out your posts before pressing submit. Before you fly off on one about that last sentence – you have, whether you think this or not, become one of the main mouthpieces for AM here on EYE. You may not be an AM Rep in the real sense of the phrase – but to all intents and purposes you have been doing a sterling job as their unofficial representative when NO-ONE from the company have deemed us worthy of comment to date. It is therefore YOU and the whole AM venture that have far more to 'lose' in this debate than me…
Paul come on!!! Do you really think people have gone to the time an trouble of posting under multiple identities????
Can you not actually comprehend that agents do have a concerns actually signing up to a service that has not been demoed, tested, features seen or promised, no commitment to what advertising they will do?
I think I have a pretty balanced view, I like the concept, I like the idea but at this stage that is all it is a concept and idea! with absolutely no guarantee what AM or OTM will actually be or how it will perform!
I am guess from your posts you are a gold member? if I was you and any other gold member I would be really worried about:
1. The take up from the public
2. The use of function's of the site
3. The effect it will have on zoopla / RM listing homeowners direct
4. The long term commitment you have to show
5. Future increases from AM
6. Restriction of advertising for a minimum period of 5 years
"As for "what committment is there from AM?" Well they're committed to paying Gold members 15% interest on their startup loans for starters …"
Erm… actually, Taff, the word "committed" is (unless I am completely thick – in which case the AM Collective will nail my nads to the wall for this…) a bit inappropriate. They're committed to £1 – and ONLY £1. The interest on startup loan you are banking on won't be paid if the venture fails – neither will the original loan amount be returned.
Or look at it another way one months subscription when they are already guaranteed plus 1.5 million income per month.
I know this is unrelated – but am I the only person who is getting 'kicked out' on a regular basis and posts being 'lost' when submitting? Bl00dy annoying!!
What a shame this gem from Dannyman is hidden away in the depths of a long reply chain, the irony made me chuckle. "One could liken signing a Gold/Silver membership to an 'up front fee' estate agent. Once the money is paid/commitment made we become tied, regardless of what happens afterwards."
I missed that one, Robert – thanks for highlighting it. It sure gets MY vote for 'Comment of the Week'!!
I doubt it PeeBee – Questioning AM so will be lost, Strange how an article generating over 70 post and 2000 views was taken off the front page …. Sounding a bit paranoid now must have had Paul H's coffee this morning 😉
In fairness, the article has simply 'fallen off' Page 1 to make room for today's news. It is a pity though that today's news isn't as interesting to the masses… ;o)
OK. Sorry I misread the £24,000 pa – that was over 5 years. Even so, I bet it's a hell of a lot less than you're paying RM now. As for "what committment is there from AM?" Well they're committed to paying Gold members 15% interest on their startup loans for starters … and Gold members get a discount on our subscription. I'm sure the RM rep (Have you ever met one? Do the travel west of Reading? I just get a one sided call … perhaps that's just me then) will like to harp on about a "5 year committment" but IIRC that only applies to Gold and Silver members, and ask yourself how long you've ALREADY committed to RM. I'm sure I've already been with them over 5 years.
So……… Playing devils advocate…….. You are committed to supporting the portal for 5 years at a tune of say 18k (spitting the difference for the other areas). Interest rate rise and mortgage lending continues to be difficult so you have less transactions.
Lets also say all the promises and hype around AM does not take off and it is poor mans rightmove.
Now you have less sales due to market conditions, you are tied into paying for a failing website 18k over a 5 year period and on top of that you cannot take the hit and go back and list with either RM or Zoopla you dropped during that time as this is part of the agreement.
Its a big risk if you look at it commercially.
Smile please…You call me childish with a username like smile please!
Great come back ……….
I hope you are a better agent than a debater!
FYI – you still have not put a single convincing point on why all the fence sitters should sign up!
"FYI – you still have not put a single convincing point on why all the fence sitters should sign up!"…..I don't need to, I don't think there are many genuine fence sitters posting on this thread anyway.
As I think posted by somebody else yesterday this is my last post of the day.
Leave you this to ponder on who wins in AM – Ian Sprignett and Associate they are the ONLY guaranteed winners. Even if they hit 4000 gold sign ups that means for 5 years they have in excess of 1.5 million pounds per month coming in. How much does it cost to run the site with staff, premises and a bit of advertising? lets say they invest 50% of this figure (I think it will be well below that) they still profit to a tune of £750,000 per month! – And a number of blind followers have signed up to this without even seeing a website, what it will do, their advertising plan, back office system. Ian and Co have done a wonderful sales job they have effectively sold nothing and generated a promised income of 1.5 million a month for 5 years. I want AM to work and deliver the promise of affordable portal and a viable alternative but still see it as a massive risk.
The thing isTaff some Agents are currently only on with either Rightmove or Zoopla not both so supporting AM even though it is something they are desperate to do is an additional expense and not a small expense or commitment.
As you have mentionedthe 15% interest rate payable to the Gold members, who/ how is that sort of interest rate being funded? if AM is not for profit where are Wonga rates of interest being generated if not from the not Gold members?
Paul, you can't dismiss people as not genuine just because they don't agree with you.
Forgive me, but I’m in a blunt mood again. Where exactly do you get a £24,000 pa commitment? I can only assume you are in a high value area, because our AM commitment (in Wales) is £14,160 over 5 years ie £2,832 per annum or £236 a month. Sure there are no guarantees – but there are no guarantees in life, so IMO it’s a bit rich for the RM rep to harp on about it when our monthly RM spend is nearly 3 times as much. I have no doubt that the RM rep kept telling you “why I should not advertise with Agents Mutual” but I’m just surprised that you expected to hear anything else from a RM rep. He’s not going to tell you anything different now .. is he? And before anyone says “£236 a month commitment is a lot of money” work out what you will be paying RM or Zoopla over the same 5 yr period. I did, and frightened myself so much I couldn’t sleep for days. I suppose if you’re average commission is £6,500 per sale, then you only need just over 2 sales a year to cover the subscription. Yes, I suppose it is like a marriage, but there are obligations on BOTH sides.
I think the £24,000 was over a 5 year period as opposed to PA. But yes still more expensive then your area. For me Taff that's what's holding me back committing. A good marriage does obligate both sides but what have AM really laid out? a promise to keep fees down an a website that's about it! and unfortunately people like Paul H are not helping my commitment. They are blindly thinking this website will save high street agents and will not question it. If 3000 of the 4000 already signed up have this mentality the one vote one person is a real worry to me. Just because something sounds great with a good sales pitch put on it does not mean it is.
£395 per month for 60 months Taff. No-one mentioned 24,000/annum
As for your maths on 2 sales that only works if you are making 100% profit on every sale. Given the average profit margin is acknowledged to be about 20% it takes 19 profits to cover the 24k. Looks like the business part of owning a business is a bit of a mystery to some
What a shame this story has dropped into the archive, I can see this developing into the discussion of the year.
Paul H I have followed your posts from a distance and can only liken you to Vicky Pollard. Yeah? No? Just because other agents don't think like you, have stopped and given rational business consideration to a fairly onerous and expensive commitment it does not make them mad or bad.
Come back from the front of the action for a bit Paul, are you genuinely rock solid sure that despite talk of interest rates normalising at 3% your agency is going to sell 50 – 60 extra properties over the next 5 years just to cover the cost of providing security to Mr Springett and his tech team. You are the one taking the risk on the state and 5 year future of the market along with the quality of the finished product, it's reception and adoption by the selling and buying public and the reaction of the existing dominant and well funded market leaders.
"are you genuinely rock solid sure that despite talk of interest rates normalising at 3% your agency is going to sell 50 – 60 extra properties"…Yeah but, no but, yeah but, no but….My average comm on a sale is £6500!
So you have to sell an additional 19 properties in the 5 years for no benefit to you other than being part of a club with Savils, Knight Frank etc. Your commission rate is higher than the average which indicates high value low volume. I am not sure I would want to be in your shoes Paul. Your non AM competitors next door/down the road can now afford to sell fewer properties than you or are faced with selling the same number at lower rates of commission. Either way you cut this up you are handing them a double advantage.
Without the 5 year commitment their advertising spend can wax and wane with the market. The ability to either sell less or charge less compounds into more profitable sales.
Now AM have paid professionals doing the selling and according to you doing so well doesn't it make sense to listen to the objections from agents who have not signed up and then address those objections?
"Without the 5 year commitment"….This is the phrase being spouted time and time again at the moment, I had a rightmove rep say this to me roughly 10 times in a 15 minute phone call recently! Just look how many times it's been said in this thread, makes you think!
Think what that this is a real concern? do you think we are all working for the portals? The childish, vauge and blinded post you place should we think you are a paid AM rep? As for the 5 year quote what about the other half dozen concerns agents have? or are these just RM and zoopla reps placing these as well?
I was one of the agents that attended this meeting last week and had no idea that it had been cancelled the day before. I had received a direct email from Donna confirming the date and venue too. This was due to be the second AM meeting, being a follow up to an initial presentation in July.
Like many who read these articles and also comment on them I support the principle of AM and what it aims to achieve, but ultimately my main consideration must be how will this portal improve/impact my business moving forward? At the moment there are lots of agents signed up to a non-binding agreement to advertise on the AM portal, this without any detail on how the portal will look or work in practice or any sight of a company logo. So far we are being promised an offering to combat RM & Z but being asked almost on blind faith to sign a 5 year advertising agreement if we take either a Gold/Silver subscription. For a single branch in our location that's almost £24,000. I doubt very few would be prepared to sign such an agreement with RM or Z.
I'm of the view that once there is more concrete information available about AM, I shall be in a position to make an informed decision as to whether this is for me. Support for AM is vital, but in return we as agents deserve to have any concerns we have addressed, and before the non-binding agreement letters need to become fully binding letters of intent.
Dannyman4410 – it is interesting that your comments mirror many of those that previous posters have made in the twelve months or so since the release of the AM concept – myself included – but are usually met with complete dismissal from those who respond. Failure to 'see' through their eyes is deemed a failure on OUR part – and not a failure on the part of AM to actually overcome objections. I would suggest that as long as the sign-ups come in – in whatever torrents or dribs and drabs there may be – then the likes of us Doubting Thomases will receive nothing in the way of real explanation. You say "…without any detail on how the portal will look or work in practice or any sight of a company logo. So far we are being promised an offering to combat RM & Z but being asked almost on blind faith to sign a 5 year advertising agreement…" Someone a while ago likened this to the tale of 'The Emperor's New Clothes' – which I seem to remember was rubbished in usual AM fashion. I would be extremely interested to see how YOUR objections are handled – and actually quite surprised that three hours have passed without some form of response. Mine are now, in the main, simply ignored.
PeeBee – I am waiting for a face to face meeting with the AM rep, however after discussing some of my concerns over the telephone it appears a Bronze membership when launched is being the best suggestion for me and others who are not keen on the 5 year commitment. I'll now wait and see what happens……..
Hello Danny, it is good always good to see new faces appear on PIE, it is even better when they bring a fresh perspective to the discussion especially when they express genuine concerns and a personal viewpoint that balances the fervour.
Is this a wind up? A rightmove/Zoopla rep having a laugh?
I think so!
Paul H
Why do you think it is a wind up? are agents not allowed to think the impact it has on their business? Should we all just sign up blind?
The other worry for me is it seems most agents will drop Zoopla.
This I feel will only strengthen the RM brand also where does this then put zoopla? will they just decided enough is enough and close? – I don't think so, they will look to maximise revenue and with the shares and performance they have the money to do this. I expect if agents did leave zoopla on mass and their current business model becomes unviable they will launch direct to home owners – You could very well be about to launch the first online agent that could really work "Zoopla online estate agents" they have the name, market share and there is an appetite for this. I know you a firm AM "Believer" but careful what you wish for. An article today in eye advised 20,000 agents in uk remove the 3000 from corporate, remove the 3500 – 4000 that have shown a willing to sign up to AM that is still 13000 to convert and from what it looks like sign ups are slowing. I would love AM to work but just too many variables to commit.
Paul H – at some point you are going to have to concede that NOT EVERY objector is a portal rep. So far, there appear to be thousands more objectors than there are those who have joined 'The AM Collective'… ;o)
No I am not a sales rep for either property portal, but like you and most who post on here an independent estate agent. I believe my questions to be genuine and worthy of a rational explanation from AM before proceeding further. One could liken signing a Gold/Silver membership to an 'up front fee' estate agent. Once the money is paid/commitment made we become tied, regardless of what happens afterwards. All agents signing up and expressing interest in the AM portal are doing so because they want to see a viable alternative to RM & Z, but surely there are many out there like me who have genuine questions to be addressed before making a commitment.
Dannyman4410 – I would agree with you 100% on that front – and it is what I have been saying from day 1. I want to see it OUT of the box, running and test driven before committing… want to know that I will get a return on monthly investment – and most importantly I want to be sure that my customers 'buy' into the OTM concept – which is so far impossible as the world outside of EYE and EAT has hardly an inkling of its' pending birth. If the likes of Paul H want to be trailblazers in this respect than I take my hat off to them and fully understand their motivation in drumming up members – after all, they have invested hard-earned cash and therefore have a huge vested interest in the venture succeeding… however I have previously said that 'The AM Collective' (my pet name for them…) are acting like delegates at an AmWay membership drive (or KleenEeze for you younger generation…) and all the ra-ra doesn't influence me in the slightest – quite the reverse as is seen by my resistance. For years in business when a competitor offers a potential client "an unbelievable deal" I have countered with the old adage that if a deal looks too good to be true… then it probably IS.
"So far, there appear to be thousands more objectors than there are those who have joined 'The AM Collective'… ;o)"….No there are thousands more agents who havn't signed up yet not thousands of objectors.
Paul H – not too long ago you made a big thing about my views being totally unique. Well… here you have 'smile please', 'Dannyman4410' posting exactly the same concerns I have been debating for months – and goodness knows how many other Agents who feel the same but simply won't post when they see the reception that others who dare to question AM receive on this forum. A little up the page you say "I can’t tell if your just having blind spots or messing about!!" No – it seems I've just been voicing the concerns of others… unless, of course, you wish to infer that I am simply now posting with multiple identities to make my 'unique' case look a bit stronger…?
Peebee…"I would say that the great majority don't 'hate' rightmove either"…And it is this one line that sums up why you will never understand why agents mutual will be a success. Go and speak to owners of estate agency businesses, they hate rightmove for what they did during the recession and then subsequent inflation busting rate hikes every year since.
Paul H – IF (sorry [not], MarcH – caps had to be done as there is no way to 'bold' on this site to emphasise a point…) business owners 'hate' RM for past atrocities then why oh why have they not voted en masse with their feet long before now? You and AM claim that without property RM is simply a site with nothing to look at. YOU have all therefore had the power in your own hands, month in: month out, to supposedly kill it off – yet the carnage has not happened and the same Agents' bleats of unbearable pain in the wallet – have grown louder. I ask again – why not?
"You and AM claim that without property RM is simply a site with nothing to look at. YOU have all therefore had the power in your own hands, month in: month out, to supposedly kill it off – yet the carnage has not happened and the same Agents' bleats of unbearable pain in the wallet – have grown louder. I ask again – why not?"…That is what AM is trying to do, if I were in your vicinity I would shake you endlessly right now PeeBee.
You have been trying to shake me endlessly now for several months, Paul H – and look where it's got you. You are referring back half a decade in one breath – and then to next year in another. I want to know why, during the recession you refer to as the straw that broke the camel's back, you and others didn't vote with your feet and dump the portals? After all – the recession didn't last a fortnight so you and all the other 'haters' had plenty of opportunity to put your collective c**ks on the block and press the 'unsubscribe me' button to RM et al… but only now when said recession is allegedly over and us all now coining it in again (…we wish – but that will be the public perception…) it is deemed 'right' to do it.
Just doesn't compute.
“You have been trying to shake me endlessly now for several months, Paul H – and look where it's got you”…It’s mainly due to you completely missing the obvious, the complete bloomin obvious, I can’t tell if your just having blind spots or messing about!!
“I want to know why, during the recession you refer to as the straw that broke the camel's back, you and others didn't vote with your feet and dump the portals?”….For me this is something that has built up over time but started when Rightmove raised fees during the recession then again every year since. It was inevitable at some point that an AM of some form would appear.
“After all – the recession didn't last a fortnight so you and all the other 'haters' had plenty of opportunity to put your collective c**ks on the block and press the 'unsubscribe me' button to RM et al… but only now when said recession is allegedly over and us all now coining it in again (…we wish – but that will be the public perception…) it is deemed 'right' to do it. Just doesn't compute.”….No it never does old boy 😉
When we as a group started discussing AM, we were told to bear in mind the January date when dealing with renewals ie we could not commit to a date AFTER 1st January 2015. A lot were on monthly rolling contracts anyway so could finish at short notice. Some agents may have signed agreements further ahead than Jan 2015 but may have taken the view that when AM kicks off they will stop uploading to RM or Z – ie they would pay for it, but not use it. I suppose it depends how good a deal RM or Z were offering at the time. Personally I am on a 1 month rolling contract, and wouldn’t sign any agreement that took me past Jan 2015.
I assume (another guess) “portal” means a general site which commands a fee and that Facebook or local forums would not count as a “portal”. Realistically, how many actual sales do you get from them anyway, and can you prove it? My guess is that any member breaking the “one other portal” rule would lose his entitlement to the (pretty generous) interest on his initial loan. I could have sworn this was covered by the original agreement. What the sanction would be for a Silver or Bronze member I have no idea. Don’t forget that AM is a “mutual” and to an extent would depend on mutual trust. My logic is there’s no point signing an agreement, if you are then immediately going to try and work out a way to get around that agreement. Who Polices it? I suspect it will be self-Policing. If anyone tries to be a clever **** and pull a fast one on his competitors, he’s not going to be surprised if his competitors report such an infringement surely, and frankly in my book he would deserve it anyway.
This is just another guess, but I guess that the sign-up rate will now slow down UNTIL the “fence sitters” see TV advertising. Their ambivalent (good word "ambivalent) feelings towards AM may change once homeowners ask “Do you advertise on OTM”?
Care to guess what happened when Donna didn't turn up? My guess is the Agents who did had a good chat about their ambivalence. With no-one to bang the drum and shout Rah Rah Rah I would suspect concerns were shared and those concerns were fairly much the same for Agents up and down the country. This is an inescapable 5 year lease deal on a vehicle no-one has seen or test driven, no one knows the performance figures, whether it is a Saloon, 4×4 , Hatchback Estate, or Sports car. It takes a huge leap of faith to support anything without knowing more about it or what the market is going to do in the next 5 years. A commitment to spend £24,000 over 5 years with no comeback or guarantees is a seriously big ask of people who will have to find the cash from their profits or their pockets.
"A commitment to spend £24,000 over 5 years with no comeback or guarantees is a seriously big ask of people who will have to find the cash from their profits or their pockets."…This is pretty much precisely what the Rightmove rep said to me last week. I had a 15 minute conversation with him of which 13 minutes of it entailed her telling me why I should not advertise with Agents Mutual. Re the above he told me that a 5 year commitment is like a "marriage".
So why is the Rightmove rep, Dannyman and everyone else concerned about the 5 year commitment wrong. You are the one who said how badly treated agent felt being told to cough up during the last recession, yet are supporting a contractual obligation to cough up for 60 months whether the market booms or busts once interest rates go up or the troubles in Eastern Europe or other troubled parts of the world escalate.
"So why is the Rightmove rep, Dannyman and everyone else concerned about the 5 year commitment wrong"…I'm not concerned and nor are the 3500 other agents who have signed up as gold members. Who is this "everyone" you refer to?
I have to be quick, home time in 4 minutes!
That would be all the agents less the lsl, Connells and countrywide agent and the 3500 who have signed letters of intent, by my count for every one who has, 3 haven't. and I'm not convince all 3500 will confirm when it comes to writing the first of 60 cheques.
Bye. (not here tomoz so don't bother replying Paul)
Tike Nick, You have hit the nail on the head! – How can I commit to something when I have no idea what it is! – All I know for sure is it will make a number of people a few quid setting it up / designing it. No firm plans as to what is / is not aloud. Most agents will dump Zoopla as opposed to RM which my opinion will actually strengthen RM. And nobody has factored in start up agents with a large budget that will look to monopolise on going on both RM and zoopla. There are for me too many if buts and maybes to commit. I hope it does work but as I write this I feel I do get value for money out of both sites. I am just irritated on prices increases and where they will be in 5 years i.e. will they be taking private listings? – However for me at this moment in time it is better the devil you know.
Oh get over it all of you ! It's the holiday season, someone ****** up and you lot get in a lather about it. Not for no reason it's also called the 'silly season'……and I'm also getting somewhat tired of the constant nit-picking by PeeBee with his insatiable upper case emphasis on the wrong words….rant over!
Awww… sorry TO get on your nerves, marcH – IT'S a knack I perfected A while ago…
With respect Marc no-one cares if you are fed up or not. Trying to stiffle the debate now the matter is starting to polarise is the wrong thing to do. If you are fed up with nit picking be thankful that Peebee isn't quick enough to pick up the point that the Agents who did turn up were Agents non grata. No-one told them because they weren't invited! (according to the story) In my book the explanation of the oversight adds a bit more insult to the proceedings.
As for the point about the hue and cry if a RM rep had done this, wasn't Donna a RM rep?
AHEM! 'scuse me, 'Tike Nick' – but the two points you raise certainly hadn't escaped me… I simply hadn't got round to covering them yet – but you can see I was leading up to them!
Ros is paying me to get this article into a hundred posts again so I've got to string things out… ;o)
(only kidding – but I reckon it'll get into triple digits well before Friday sees it dropping off Page 1 into obscurity…)
Nothing like a good old AM story to get the pulses racing! – Just food for thought (by the way I am undecided on AM) If it was RM or Zoopla who had handled a meeting in such a way, what would the comments be?
"Outrageous" "Taking us for granted" "They don't care about us, just the money" "Disgrace cant wait to leave" – So why are you affording AM such leniency considering they are looking to entice you away?
Paul H – I have been accused in recent weeks of taking stories off-subject. It has occurred to me that exactly this is happening here as a result of the initial post; your response… my response to yours etc etc. So – let's get back on track. A pre-arranged AM meeting was called off leaving some curious/interested Agents standing – apparently not for the first time. What's your opinion on THAT?
MINE, by the way, is that it's a pretty poor show (or NO show, as the case may be…). The possibility of ONE interested party tipping up would have given opportunity to get closer to the latest target. I wonder how many actually were left standing on the doorstep…?
"So – let's get back on track. A pre-arranged AM meeting was called off leaving some curious/interested Agents standing – apparently not for the first time. What's your opinion on THAT"….My opinion is that it's a poor organization show and the appointment should have been cancelled, to which Helen Whiteley of Agents Mutual appears to agree.
Paul H – from what it says above the 'appointment' WAS 'cancelled' – by someone, with some people – but obviously not to EVERYONE. Like 'smile please' says below – had this been a RM Rep not turning up for an appointment you would have seen the mushroom cloud of disgust go up from anywhere on the planet!
There is a main difference which is that ALL agents hate Rightmove, they don't hate Agents Mutual.
Erm… sorry – but I don't 'hate' Rightmove. I would say that the great majority don't 'hate' it either – but what they DO dislike ('hate' being rather an inappropriate word I would suggest…) is how the company works. People CAN'T 'hate' AM either – because there is nothing there as yet to 'hate' except words and promises. Time will no doubt tell on that front also, mon ami…
I suspect they are immensely busy behind the scenes, however there is a little confusion over who has legally committed and letters of intent. RM & Z by all accounts seem to have no issues regarding renewals with agents entering into contracts for another year or more. Perhaps they would say that though, wouldn't they?
I have also asked AM the question "Can you define a portal?". Apart from the big two, on what else can you not advertise? Obviously, bespoke property portals which command a fee (I assume) but what about sites which list your properties without your knowledge as Globrix once did? What about Homes 24? Or a local forum which allows property listings? Or a Facebook app for property? I have asked the question directly and the answer was 'I will find out and let you know'. That was several weeks ago. And what is the penalty if an agents properties are listed on another 'portal' and which they have no contract for? Will AM police the entire internet, or will they just check RM & Z?
I was also under the impression that new instructions would be listed exclusively on AM for a week before being listed- yet was advised this was voluntary and not a contractual requirement.
I hope AM succeeds and am sure they will generate a good market share, but think it imprudent to lose demonstrable business and potentially damage a good relationship until I can see a proven, viable and successful alternative.
Is there any truth in the claim that Northwood have now joined? I wasn't party to the actual conversation but Northwood were mentioned in the same paragaraph as the 3 (out of 20) firms who have signed up.
No. Northwood has not joined for the reasons stated above. A number of colleagues have, however, attended seminars to see what it is all about.
Thank you for the confirmation Eric, Ms Beaufoy would do well to realise that even out here where the carrots are proper crunchy we have access to the internet and can check up on what she is saying/claiming.
"I was also under the impression that new instructions would be listed exclusively on AM for a week before being listed- yet was advised this was voluntary and not a contractual requirement." Yes – but apart from 'forcing' buyers attention to OTM, what earthly purpose do you see this non-requirement fulfilling, Eric – and it's benefit or impact to the customer?
I see no purpose, which was why I asked. Exclusive 'sole agency' listings for a week wont stop negs calling applicants whom have already registered from another portal.
So true, Sir. MY 'problem' with the whole thing is what vendors and landlords will make of being embargoed from the one major portal that their chosen Agent has decided be 'the other' portal to stick with – for the next few months, at least… but then don't use it to their client's best advantage. Doesn't make sense, in my book…
"Yes I do, actually – it nicely coincided with the 31 July withdrawal of the SECOND 'Gold Membership' exclusive offers – for which the THIRD exclusive offer was released probably the next day."And your point being?
"The latest one is time limited to 24 October or 1000 new signings – which equates to only 83 per week so YES, I DO think that sign-up rates are dwindling"….Are you sure your an entrepreneur PeeBee 😉
"or they are setting their reps soft targets to make better headlines – you "…Or your just assuming that they won't exceed 1000 sign ups.
"Wonder what the FOURTH 'Gold' offer will be – BOGOF, perhaps – or what about four years interest free credit in true 'DFS Sale' fashion, maybe…? ;o)"…
It will be released around 1st November and will be a £600 one off fee, no loan notes and roughly 15% discount on silver membership.
"And your point being?" Nice and simple, matey – when you were offered the deal you plumped for, where you told that if you didn't take it up before 'cut-off', that there would be other opportunities at a later date (albeit at slightly less attractive terms…)?
"….Are you sure your an entrepreneur PeeBee ;-)" Did I ever state or claim that I WAS, Paul H?
""…Or your just assuming that they won't exceed 1000 sign ups." No, mate – I'm not. I'm simply stating fact – that Springett has on several occasions stated that Members are joining up faster and faster – yet now they slow down their targets. You yourself recently (22 July) stated "Here's how I see the membership numbers panning out; 3rd October 4250 1st November 5250 5th December 7000 Roll on January." – so YOUR guesstimate could well be vastly overegged… unless as I suggest they are softening the numbers quoted now in order to crow about how well they did to achieve 4000 well within their (last released) planned timescale. But you've got to face fact, Paul H – the 'easy' sign-ups have already happened… now you're down to the likes of me. And if the next 'offer' is as poor as you suggest it will be (makes the current one look good to those currently 'on the fence', I guess…) – then they'd BETTER hit this target… as the 4001st might be a tough nut to crack.
“Nice and simple, matey – when you were offered the deal you plumped for, where you told that if you didn't take it up before 'cut-off', that there would be other opportunities at a later date (albeit at slightly less attractive terms…) "….What exactly is your point PeeBee?
"…Or your just assuming that they won't exceed 1000 sign ups." No, mate – I'm not. I'm simply stating fact – that Springett has on several occasions stated that Members are joining up faster and faster – yet now they slow down their targets.”….When was the target slowed down, the new offering simply states that there is a deadline of 24th October and the first 1000 agents, what targets are you talking about?
“You yourself recently (22 July) stated "Here's how I see the membership numbers panning out; 3rd October 4250 1st November 5250 5th December 7000 Roll on January." – so YOUR guesstimate could well be vastly overegged…”….No I think my numbers are bang on schedule!
“unless as I suggest they are softening the numbers quoted now in order to crow about how well they did to achieve 4000 well within their (last released) planned timescale”…Im surprised by how paranoid you are for someone who’s not an entrepreneur!
“But you've got to face fact, Paul H – the 'easy' sign-ups have already happened… now you're down to the likes of me.”…No that is not a FACT that is a guess and I think your totally wrong. I think the people signing up now are those that don’t use social media or read online journals, I reckon they will get to around 4500 before the “on the fencers” jump on board!
Well… I guess one way or another it's a case of 'watch this space', mon ami!
(although of course if the propaganda drawbridge has been raised I'm not exactly sure where 'this space' will be, exactly…;o) )
Even I'm surprised how quickly the Agents Mutual false dawn seems to be disintegrating
Is that what you're hoping will happen Mr Quirk? Quite the opposite down in my neck of the woods. The vast majority have signed up and have decided who the "one other portal" will be. January 2015 can't come fast enough as far as we're concerned.
Forgive me for being blunt, but why are we ".. leaving agent members in the area to invite other agents along from guest lists"? AM have the list of all the agents in the country (if they haven't, well they ***** well should have) and they have a list of all the signed up agents (myself included) so why don't THEY do the "inviting"? At the start, I can understand that word of mouth was useful, but we now have people paid to do this. I don't mind helping out and carrying my share of the load, but all the agents I know are already signed up.
There is a simple solution: don't cancel meetings.
The solution is not to delegate meetings to Agents who are competing with each other on a local level. A bit like asking a lion to share carrion with the hyenas.
No news – bad news? The wires have been very quiet of late about AM – what happened to the growing swell of 100 offices signing up on a regular basis – how close are they to the silver members target?
"The wires have been very quiet of late"…clearly a deliberate ploy, I doubt you will hear anything now for a few more weeks, theyre keeping everyone wondering including Zoopla and Rightmove.
Nope… sorry, Paul H – but that simply doesn't stick in my opinion.
BUT… if you are right and AM have pulled the drawbridge up – then I suggest you have a serious problem on your hands with only 19 weeks to OTM-day…
PeeBee, you do realise that AM did not even announce that there are now 3500 gold member sign ups and that this milestone was hit 1st August?
What do you think is the reason why AM have made no announcements for 3 weeks then, do you think the sign up numbers are dwindling?
I don't know about PeeBee but I feel the number of sign ups may very well be falling. The "Press Office" have released very little information of late…..
"you do realise that AM did not even announce that there are now 3500 gold member sign ups and that this milestone was hit 1st August?" Yes I do, actually – it nicely coincided with the 31 July withdrawal of the SECOND 'Gold Membership' exclusive offers – for which the THIRD exclusive offer was released probably the next day. The latest one is time limited to 24 October or 1000 new signings – which equates to only 83 per week so YES, I DO think that sign-up rates are dwindling…or they are setting their reps soft targets to make better headlines – you choose! Wonder what the FOURTH 'Gold' offer will be – BOGOF, perhaps – or what about four years interest free credit in true 'DFS Sale' fashion, maybe…? ;o)