Yesterday, Surrey NAEA chairman James Wyatt announced that his firm, Barton Wyatt, has given notice to Zoopla.
He wrote to member agents saying: “We’ve all been talking about portals for a long time. Property Live – remember that?!
“I know that not all of you have joined the Agents’ Mutual Group, but I thought I’d keep you up to date.
“I’m writing to tell you that I have made my move.
“My little firm has been on Agents’ Mutual from the outset. Today, I have given notice to Zoopla.
“We have studied all the data since January and it is overwhelmingly one sided. The customer experience has been one sided too.
“We pay Rightmove considerably more, but they give us some (and only some) good leads and customer service is top notch.
“So there you are – who else is making their move?”
Barton Wyatt is the first agency firm that Eye has been made aware of to go public with its choice.
Other Agents’ Mutual firms – for example, Acorn – have said they will go right up to the wire before making a decision.
Other firms have either still not decided or not yet confirmed whether they will join Agents’ Mutual.
Peter Loverdos, group operations director of Romans, which does not advertise on Zoopla but does use Rightmove, told Eye: “We have made our decision on OnTheMarket, but not to make public yet.”
Comments (104)
This is really looking like a shareholders' meeting. Would all on-line agents and Zoopla shareholders please, please go away. We really not interested in your winging. I haven't looked forward to something quite so much in a long time. Roll on OTM.
Hell fire, there is some bull **** being spread today. “If [applicants] don’t know there are fewer properties why would they search further?” Very very simply – I and thousands like me will be explaining that we advertise on Onthemarket.com AND will be phasing our uploads – ie my properties will appear on OTM say 5 days before they appear on RM or Z. I’ve said it before, but the COLLECTIVE clout we have as an industry is massive and better still won’t cost us much extra to really push OTM. Eg we already send out thousands of e-mails, we already advertise in the local paper, we already rent High Street shop fronts, we already pay for “For Sale” boards, we already post out details to buyers who don’t have e-mail. Adding the OTM logo and leaflets explaining that ALL our properties will be advertised on n OTM first before they appear on RM or Z. And THAT my friend is how applicants will know to search further. In fact, in my opinion they will not be searching further – they will be searching OTM first. Ion theory there has always been a collective advertising clout, but it was never co-ordinated before – well it is now! Bring it on! I haven’t felt this excited since Wales got to the Semi Final of the Rugby World Cup 3 years ago.
Is it just me or does anyone else wonder why so many 'digital experts' post so much and so frequently on an estate agency industry website/forum and why they are all – without exception – so anti-OTM?
They all work on the Z tech desk…………………or were not successful in their OTM interview…… or are Z/RM Reps in disguise…….. or sold a shed load of those discounted shares to someone………..or are online agents……..or finally Corp EA Managers knowing their market share will be even worse next year…………………. there can be no other reason in the world why a decent tech person would be Anti AM, no reason at all……. when it is bringing another virtual techy online thingy miggigy for them to potential mend one day…. surely the more websites the better in the tech world….very odd.
"They all work on the Z tech desk…………………or were not successful in their OTM interview…… or are Z/RM Reps in disguise…….. or sold a shed load of those discounted shares to someone………..or are online agents……..or finally Corp EA Managers knowing their market share will be even worse next year…………………."It's all getting a bit frantic on this mornings threads, you can smell the fear!
Just the one comment on… Digital Expert?
Agents aren't dropping Internet Marketing, they're moving their Online Shop Window to OnTheMarket.com …whether partly or wholly.
…and you make some valid points, no doubt… however the inference that Estate Agents can't choose a different portal because The Duopoly effectively rule the Property Portal World forever?… give over!
… now, rather than give you the air to breathe and waffle on… I'll look forward to the arrival of OnTheMarket.com
Funny thing is… all these detractors?… if it's not of concern to The Duopoly, if it's never going to work, if it's going to fail… why waste your time? Forgive me…you're here boxing in the ring with a beaten fighter?… seriously!…why bother?…why care?
Congratulations to all those forward thinking estate agents who have made their decision on Agents Mutual and the arrival/launch of OnTheMarket.com
… and for those undecided… we seriously hope you will follow!… it's your profession, it's your industry, you surely know how best to serve your clients and as part of that whether it's time to change your Online Marketing Provider… do you seriously believe that only The Duopoly can provide your Online Property Portal?… you've always gone to the same petrol station, same newsagent, same pub, same restaurant, same holiday destination, bought the same car… and so it goes on or did you ever try something different?…you did? Rightmove? Zoopla?…. when they weren't the market leader? the most dominant? the biggest etc?….You did!… and so the arrival of OnTheMarket.com. …not the market leader!… not the most dominant! …not the biggest! …. absolutely correct! … however The Duopoly grew with your support, so why not Agents Mutual & OnTheMarket.com? Don't kid yourself, The Duopoly don't have a Magic Silver Bullet… they have us, the estate agents …. and they have built presence through the properties we provide and marketing… yes… marketing & technology… NOT a secret potion, NOT the formula for Coca Cola.
Forgive me, is it beyond professional estate agents & OnTheMarket.com to become the No1 Property Portal… without throwing millions & millions!… so The Duopoly will throw millions at convincing the public why their portals are the best… yet, like flicking a switch… estate agents could simply move their stock away… like moving your high street shop premises from one side of the street to the other… however The Duopoly would try to convince you the equivalent of moving across that road is soooooo dangerous you just can't risk it, you're doomed, you'll never make it!
Really… have we really become The Monkeys and they… The Organ Grinders?
Don't believe The Duopoly!… change will never happen if you don't have the courage to make it happen!
OnTheMarket.com The Duopoly said it would never happen, well here we are…26/01/2015 OnTheMarket.com!
I have probably posted on here a little too much but I just have one more comment to make. Much has been made today of the statistics and the habits of todays buyers. But this story started with an agent in Surrey who has made a decision to switch off a portal he is currently with. To my knowledge they are one office, dealing at a high end of the market, they, like many of us are on the coalface of what happens to these "leads" from the portals and don't need to be told how many thousands of enquiries are generated elsewhere, they see what comes into THEIR office. As is the case in many parts of the country one portal produces significantly better leads than the other I would assume and they have made that judgement based on the results they have seen. They could have saved the money and added to their bottom line but they have decided to invest that money in supporting a portal that might one day rival the other big player in the portal space. They don't need to justify their reasons for that, or do any of us. They are paying and continuing to use the more dominant portal in their area so their clients will be happy and come the time when the leads from OTM rival that or are better qualified than the portal they are staying with, well then they have a choice they can make. Perfect sound business sense and a company investing in their future.
What if OTM doesn't make it to No.1?. What if OTM only hurt Z but hardly effect RM. Surely that would lead to an even more dominant RM as their competition would have been diluted. The way I see it OTM is in danger of becoming "one of the other two" after RM.
BINGO! – This is another reason I have not signed up to AM, in my honest opinion I think some agents have got carried away with the promises and dream that has been sold to them and not thought it through fully.
FALSE CALL, NO BINGO, carry on……….. Z will never become number 1 so RM dominant now………If Status quo remains as now, Rm will become more dominant anyway………………….so RM will remain dominant and become more dominant if we don't try! RM may become more dominant if we try and fail! BUT BUT BUT RM will not become more dominant if we try and succeed…………… So you are right there is a chance RM may become stronger as a result of this, however the agents with guts are prepared to try and stop this and the weak agents who moan and will not try WILL end up as the reason it fails if it does……….. There is little doubt if the fence sitters all joined the chances of AM becoming number 1 grow hugely and who says OTM cannot be number 1?…….. CP thinks it could be don't you CP…… surely you would never say never!
"Z will never become number 1" true and look at the money they have spent trying to get there. I would love RM to get hit, I just think that they are too far ahead.
Hi Zed. It does look that way, but there is something different with the AM/OTM challenge…………………The whole concept of the one other portal, the investment side of the membership and perhaps the simple fact enough is enough and if we do want to try and get back control of this particular area of spend this is the LAST CHANCE we have………… it will succeed (Never say Never hey CP) but if it doesn't, I'm still on RM, I was never on Z so will not have to go back cap in hand to any site and I can say "I/we tried" This is the bit where I am perhaps more comfortable than some as I am adding to my online presence with OTM not "gambling one against the other" so I perhaps don't have the distraction others have when deciding on whether to support AM………… but whatever happens I remain puzzled why any indep Agency business owner would not see AM as a no brainer leaving the corps to pay the price in keeping their fellow shareholders happy…… I can only assume some of the people posting on here do not pay the bills so just don't get it.
Surely to maximise exposure of a client's property, one should promote the property on all and sundry; why restrict to just RM and Z! The reason one does not is there is a balance between cost and benefit i.e. value for money: no blank cheque for marketing in my company! The question for me is, is there value in using both RM and Z? I think not as I believe both will likely capture the same visitors, so Z will likely be the one to retain.
Thats a sensible summary of the situation we all find ourselves in. As soon as I knew about AM I knew I would be dropping RM – I dont care that the detractors complain about this making things difficult for the consumer, because my priority is to make sure my business remains profitable. I am afraid that the 'consumer' comes after the financial security of my staff and my family and if my business survives I know the 'consumer' will be better off in the long run being able to instruct an independent, responsible, well trained and motivated agent instead of only having the choice of a couple of faceless on-line companies similar to Amazon.
Hey Robin question for you (and I do really mean this genuinely). Why was it not until you knew about AM that you decided to drop RM? I agree with everything you are saying about profitability of your business coming first, etc., but don't see how AM figures into anything at all. If RM is not adding to your branch's profitability by helping you to win more instructions, etc. to justify its cost, you should have dropped it long ago. But if you think that paying to be a member of Agent's Mutual will benefit your business's profitability, I would suggest you rethink that.
Sorry to take a while to reply – not able to look at this yesterday while I got waist deep in 'black Friday'…. Your question is very reasonable and makes me think about why estate agents generally (but not universally) have tended to behave like sheep – the "if all the others are doing it, so should I" mentality. It's never been possible in all the areas I have worked to get agents to work together for their joint benefit – it is such a competitive business that agents will use every opportunity to try and gain advantage over their competition and if a new portal comes along it's not long before most if not all have climbed aboard for fear of being left behind. Once you are onboard it is very difficult to get off again, and the portals have taken advantage of this at every opportunity. I guess that the answer to your question is simple, really – RM are the dominant portal so we could not really consider dropping them until AM gave us an alternative solution. Z are only a secondary means of internet advertising BUT they give us enough leads to supplement our own activities and this gives me the confidence to drop RM now because I know we can continue to provide our service without them, once we have OTM as well. The money saved will be invested in other activities and technology upgrades which will give us a longer term advantage over the companies who insist on staying with RM and paying their ever increasing fees. I have said before on this forum that this a something of a gamble, but the odds are very much in our favour, and the alternative is certain to lead to much more dominance by the existing portals and a complete loss of all control over the costs of our internet advertising, so the choice for me is an easy one to make. The only disappointment for me is that more businesses in my field have not taken this opportunity to drop RM and I am afraid this is down to the competitive mentality I described above blinding them to the problems they are creating for themselves.
Robin
I have to say that, having previously had a couple of 'handbags at ten paces' moments with you on the subject (and no doubt more will follow… ;o) ), and while I don't agree totally with what you say, you have put forward an extremely well thought-out and reasoned explanation for ukpropmaster's question.
I, for one, sincerely hope your decision works for you.
PeeBee – this is annoying because I don't seem to able to reply to your reply – only to my own comment! However, I hope you see this…. I believe there might have been a few occasions in the past when your understandable caution might have clashed with my ‘jump in with both feet’ attitude but by and large I find a great deal to agree with you about and I have come to enjoy reading your comments. I particularly liked the recent exchange between you and Mr Jury after he suggested that you didn’t know what you were talking about – what a laugh that gave me! Keep it up and let’s hope we have more and more common ground to share in the future – it can only be good for us! Now, I am working today and must fly out on an appointment – wish me luck!
I do wish you luck, Robin – but on the other hand maybe I don't need to! ;o) Have a good weekend!!
Over 3000 reads and 50 posts all by mod day today not bad.
I'n any case a big welcome to our new posters today. Digital Expert, David Bamforth and ukpropmaster who have all contributed considerably.
Not sure if that is genuine or if you are implying something, but in any event I will say thank you for the welcome. I have been following the banter back and forth with interest for weeks now, and decided I might as well join the discussion. After all, just looked too fun to resist 🙂
ukpropmaster – trust me, this lot don't 'imply' ANYTHING – they simply come out and tell you which portal they reckon you're on the payroll of based upon your spelling and grammar! ;o)
It's ironic really I was going to post to say that the number of Rm and Z contributors had been quiet recently and that perhaps they had been informed by their hopefully wiser masters that OTM was happening and they would be better advised supporting the choice agents were making and making themselves the option for the 2nd portal of choice or the go to portal at some point down the line. Sadly they are back. I read all these comments about it's a bad choice for customers, how we only need two portals we should be happy with that and then somehow the discussion always comes around to how many people go online to find a home. So here it is: FIRSTLY Is it bad for customers? How can it be, you have a portal launching in a blaze of publicity, its a must look for house hunters AND most agents are leaving their stock on one of the other two portals. so clients are easily getting sufficient coverage….for those that believe you have to be on both, I say you're in fantasy land. Two was only ever used by most agents as a marketing tool, one has always been sufficient because it is NOT the only place enquiries come from. SECONDLY we only need two portals, well those that work for them would say that, do we only have two banks, do we only have two supermarkets, do we only have two estate agents in a town?!!… well I don't even need to answer that, to suggest we do is just laughable, if it didn't elude to far more serious mental illness. AND THEN we have the comment that buyers look online WE KNOW THAT and they will still be able to find property online so there isn't really an argument. So we are left with the agents motivation: I think that it will be spun as cash because thats what sounds like the best sound bite but the reality is that RM and Z have the arrogance to imply that estate agents are merely the vessel to help sellers and landlords get their properties onto an advertising portal, to display that complete lack of understanding of how estate agency has always worked means it doesn't deserve loyalty. RM and Z as I have said yesterday have simply put the high street into a place where buyers can save the shoe leather ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MORE! Its still down to estate agents to SELL!!! They will get that shop window with OTM and I would urge all those who have read these anti estate agent comments posted today, if you haven't signed up, do it now because this the real face and the truth about what the people you are currently dealing with think of you. They believe you are only there BECAUSE of them!…..are you?
The whole dull, banging on bit about from the grumpy little band of odd balls that think Z is the be all and end all of their offering and if their competition isn't on it they will be able to have their leg in the air on valuations all falls apart if you have a look at Romans, they haven't been on Z for ages / ever and are known for impressive market share and in some areas near on total dominance, plus having just sold out 20 branches for 50 million quid……….not being on Z is irrelevant – Jonnie
Digital expert I can only presume you are A) not an Estate Agent or Work for R/M / Z. In my town the local paper came out today and there are 25 pages of properties and you say newspaper advertising doesn't work! Surely we can't all be wrong! I still have a healthy footfall of buyers and sellers call into my office so not everyone is reliant on the internet, a lot of my selling is done on a reasonably new invention called the telephone and many of my property is sold before it even gets onto the internet, that may affect your statistics.
I for one do not feel like I need to be on both sites and will be dropping Zoopla come January, I would say probably 10% of my valuations ask which Internet sites I am on. Come January if they ask about Zoopla I will be saying we have dropped them because their leads are of generally poor quality (which they are – Mr X is looking in Surrey) and that most people who look on Z will also look on R/M anyway. I will also be promoting OTM, it will be on all my stationery, my property details, my window and leaflets will be sent with my mailing list (currently 480 applicants). I believe there are 4000 other offices that will be doing the same, that is a hell of a lot of FREE advertising and it is getting to the people that count – genuine buyers and sellers. This is how we made R/M and Zoopla and we can do the same with OTM.
A good guess, as it suits your debate, but not quite right – I'm neither an agent or a portal employee but a digital marketing consultant employed within the market place to analyse marketing spend & trends.
1) Yes, every single one of the contributors to the 25 pages of newspaper advertising is wrong. When did you last buy something from a local newspaper? If you think I'm wrong, contact your newspaper rep, ask them to put in a geo-targeting number in your advert (so you can track the response) and see what they say. They'll refuse because it doesn't work. I used to work in this field, and it is dead, believe me. If I'm wrong, then why not pull out of all online advertising, including OTM and give the Yellow Pages a call?
2. You may be in a fortunate position of having a great branch location where there is footfall, but I know for a fact that traffic in the high street is in serious and permanent decline as consumers flock to online shopping for better prices and better choice.
3. Pull your broadband out of the wall for a week and come back to me about how reliant you are on the internet. Mine was down for a week recently, and it's like someone turned the plug off on planet earth.
4. More than one portal: If you're selling ketchup, you'd want to be in Sainsbury's & Tesco, not just Sainsbury's and the local corner shop – even if they promote it in the condiment section of the local rag that 3 people & you read.
Quite what problem this industry has about paying for marketing, and marketing that works beyond proof, is beyond confusing. Especially as the whole country is beginning to ask why should I pay a few £1000 to an agent when I could pay a virtual agent £300 for the same service.
Make no mistake, the digital industry, city analysts, the press, Vendors & the public at large are shaking their heads. Making a point to current & potential vendors in January that you have dropped a national website, with their millions upon millions of people visiting it and national scale brand awareness and advertising because you want to save a few quid to and to place their property on an inferior product is folly and cringeworthy.
And lastly – how YOU made RM & Zoopla? I think you've just embarrassed yourself.
I'm not saying I don't rely on Internet, far from it so stop putting words in my mouth, I have said I will remain on R/M but will drop Z.
You don't work in my office so you know ****. Do you think I don't analyse what advertising works and what doesn't? I wouldn'y have been running this business successfully for 16 years if I didn't. I would estimate that 15 – 20% of my calls start with ' you've got a house / bungalow in the paper this week'. Far from dead eh???
I also live in a small retirement town where a large percentage of the population are elderly and don't own computers – Now tell me your Virtual agent will get the best coverage and best price if it is only being seen by half the people looking.
Also why should I pay pay two lots of fees where most people view both sites? And before you say you will be paying OTM as well I sincerely hope that it works and at some stage will be in a position in the future to drop R/M as well, optimistic I realise but you never know, it may also put me in a better position to negotiate on fees.
And far from embarrassing myself we (Estate agents) DID put R/M and Z where they are today, are you really that stupid and naïve to think we didn't?
And finally, I don't like Ketchup.
But if Heinz wants to max their exposure of Ketcup, say a stand, they will have to pay the retailer for the privilege!
You haven't got to do anything, Dave.
I just remember the golden age of agents more concerned about selling houses & doing all they can for their vendors. If you think, honestly think, this is it, I wish you good luck.
Most of all, be happy. 🙂
I always find it interesting that when ever a so called digital expert comes on they always somehow seem to over look the fact that firstly not every estate agent is on both both RM and Z yet still sells property effectively and secondly that actually the debate isn't about advertising online surprisingly we get that and all do. Its also apparent that actually that you don't understand the concept of selling: You take an enquiry and you overcome objections, promote the virtues and encourage that enquiry to buy, if all that was needed was an advert then the online only agents would be selling a much higher proportion of the houses that they are instructed to sell. Why should you pay an estate agent £1000 when you could pay £300, well lets look past the fact you will be paying more than that I suspect, you pay that because firstly market conditions change and sometimes like right now, people do not queue down the road to buy someones house, they need to be convinced to buy it, is your £300 agent going to do that, I doubt it. Then you have 4 months to wait while the transaction goes through, in that time the buyer could change their mind at any time, a bad survey, something in the local search they don't like, another property comes up cheaper. Is your £300 agent going to salvage that for you or you going to add to your £300 with another £800 in abortive legal fees. We haven't even touched on the negotiation, where your agent knows you are anxious to sell, if you deal with the buyer direct so will they, what are they going to do, pay you the best price? and don't forget people don't make offers of £500 less, its often chunks of £5000. How is that £300 looking now, you've saved £700 and its already lost you almost £6000. Are you starting to get a better picture of what someone else profession does now Digital Expert?
Having been a very successful salesperson, and having worked with agents for a few years I have to say – your job is easier than ever.
Saying you have to 'convince' people to buy – that is describing every sales job in the world, ever. Having your living pending on 3rd party decisions – ditto. That is sales.
Estate agency has never been easier – instead of expensive and wasteful newspaper and local magazine advertising to a largely uninterested and un-targeted audience, you can choose 1 or 2 websites (both with different audiences, and national awareness in their own right) to target 90% of interested, targeted audiences UK wide for less than a couple of pages of newspapers of limited, outdated 1 photo per property stock.
Imagine telling your younger self how easy it would become, and how cost efficient. And the industry still moans.
If only you could see it how the public do.
In what way are the audiences different?
They have different, exclusive audiences with surprisingly little crossover and different reasons to visit.
If you mean strengths in different locations, there is little need to promote on both.
My younger self worked through the 1980's where I just had to make a call and could sell a property. I needed little or no advertising then. I also saw the 90's where no one wanted to buy anything and I have also seen 2008 where despite the internet property portals people still didn't want to buy anything, yet I sold property for clients through all of those markets, a lot of property. By all means have an opinion on the value of property portals, we all do too but don't you dare come on to a site like this, occupied by property professionals that have had to SELL houses over many years, not just a snap shot of the previous 12 months and arrogantly demean the skills required to do so.
Well said RealAgent and that is just scraping the surface of what we do. It is unfortunate that the likes of Digital Expert does not realise that this is still a REAL world outside of his VIRTUAL one.
I live in it, and importantly, understand it.
🙂
"I live in it, and importantly, understand it. :)"
And WE live in OUR 'world'; WE understand OURS better than ANYONE looking at it from afar – and WE don't have to take a break from ours every hour in case it burns a hole through our retinas – so we NEVER take our eyes off our world… unlike you netheads! ;o)
"Yes, every single one of the contributors to the 25 pages of newspaper advertising is wrong. When did you last buy something from a local newspaper?" Okay, 'Digital Expert' – please give me your realistic explanation for the following: How come the portal page impressions of every property I advertise in our local newspaper spike by an average of 23% in the week following publication, compared to the three weeks prior to the event?
"Especially as the whole country is beginning to ask why should I pay a few £1000 to an agent when I could pay a virtual agent £300 for the same service" Erm… actually the question you refer to has been asked now for almost a decade and STILL only two in every hundred take it the next step – and many of those are doing BOTH at the same time.
Wow, It really amazes me that that articles like this are still getting this many responses…….The same old nonsense posts, from the anti brigade that they have been posting for over a year, whilst OTM has gone about its business and WILL launch successfully with 1000s of agents and 10's of 10's of 1,000's of properties in January. For me, I don't feel I need to post on this subject any more…..it's job done…..the debate is over for the moment, in my opinion.
Pot, kettle? Same 5 or 6 pro OTM regurgitating the same agent centric, sod the consumer this is all about us claptrap.
Well, wilko, for one I am sorry to hear that you are withdrawing from the debate when there's still time showing on the stopwatch. As far as I'm concerned, it's been a blast. We've come to digital blows on several occasions over my "nonsense posts" as you so eloquently label them – but we've also enjoyed good craic and banter (at least I have, and I hope I speak for you also). Hopefully come 2015 we can find more to agree on – and less to sap our respective energies 'fighting' over! ;o)
There are some good points being made here. I run a small rural estate agency and am able to compete on a level playing field with all my competitors as a result of the existence of the portals. However, I have sold 7 houses this year that did not come openly onto the market (vendor's choice) with a sales value in excess of £9m and fees generated in excess of £100k. I am not alone in the 'quiet' marketing approach and an increasing number of vendors like it. I know there will be lots of negative comments from people saying exposure is the only way to go, but I beg to differ. Property generally cheapens the longer it stays on the market and as soon as you say to a purchaser they have the chance to view something 'off market' they sit up and listen. Perhaps OffTheMarket.com will be the spin off!! Many reading this will have the same experience. The point of OnTheMarket is that it is giving control back to the agents/vendors. Zoopla etc. seem to give too much information to buyers, sometimes enough to put them off. I probably wont have time to post again, so one last point. I and my staff spend hours and hours phoning applicants to see if they are still looking, see if their requirements have changed, make sure they know about everything we have both on and 'off' market etc and often talk them into viewing a property that they had discounted and then end up buying. Most applicants love the contact and we pick up a lot of new business that way. No online agent will ever have the time, patience or money to be able to do this. Am I worried? I'll leave the worrying for others…
Yep, those public members hate 'too much information' when making a significant purchase.
What a naive comment to make. If you were an estate agent you would know we are in the business of selling. We are not a library of property. You tell buyers what they need to know but in a way that ensures they interpret it correctly…….In other words doing what is in the interests of OUR client!
This is how consumers behave – they demand the information before they buy through research. It is you who is naive to believe you're doing anyone a service by limiting their exposure and limiting the knowledge they have. Your vendors become your buyers – you do know that, right?
Where did I say I was limiting anything? If you are going to quote me at least do so correctly. I said giving the information in a controlled way, to ensure they do not misinterpret it. I will give you an example if you were selling your studio apartment and a buyer saw that your property was £10,000 more than another that was on there. Would you want that buyer to just take the information they saw on the internet and discard your property, or would you hope that when talking to your estate agent, they explained that you had in fact renewed the lease on yours, it was also of the slightly larger design, yours was also located at the end of the block where they achieve more because the garages are a little closer…..we sell property remember?!
Markets don't stand still, customers (the agent) vote with their feet, when they feel they are been treated unreasonably and are angry. Note: The agent in this case holds the cheque book. Agents are disgruntled because the current Duopoly keep putting up their fees astronomically, they have been bleeding agents dry when they could least afford the well above inflationary fees and as far as I can see without competitive constraint they will continue to do so.
We allow our intellectual data (properties) onto these sites, no doubt the crop of that data is harvested and then produced for our competitors good fortune, for me it is time to stop and take stock.
Ultimately, I for one have signed up to AM because we (The estate agents) have unwittingly created our own monster that if not contained it will consume us. If you do not have a viable business, you have no business. Who will be left then to defend your clients best interests? Note your business will be in the graveyard.
It is time to act now and not sit on the fence because this opportunity AM offers may be the last chance you will have in preserving a personal service in the main non corporate based industry.
I am confident when AM marketing starts, your customers will be asking why are you not onthemarket.com and if not why not? You will need to make sure you have the edge and are with them for next years spring market.
It is simple get off the fence and make it happen, surely a risk well worth taking. You may be invited back to your old portal at lower rates!
"I am confident when AM marketing starts, your customers will be asking why are you not onthemarket.com and if not why not?"….This is indeed the point that many have made for some time now. In many areas where OTM will have a big presence, where some leading, long established and reputable agents are on board and with the big media push and co-branding, some clients/customers are going to ask why you are not on this new website, especially when they see that in their area either Zoopla or Rightmove is decimated with less listings. It's time that agents made a long term decision and backed OnTheMarket, as I believe that most believe that is in the whole the right thing to do for their business and their industry.
Good luck with that.
Q Who will be left to defend your clients best interests?
A The Agent who can say with assurance I'm putting your property in front of as many prospective buyers as possible
You need to make sure you have the edge:
Achieve this buy slashing your online prominence in half, whilst making much less money in the process.
Genius.
"Achieve this buy slashing your online prominence in half, whilst making much less money in the process. Genius."….Well i've been off of Zoopla for some two months now and it's not affected my business at all, not one bit. My clients have been totally satisfied with the service received, the prices achieved and the speed in which me and my staff have sold or let their property. Next!
"Markets don't stand still , customers vote with their feet" caveat.. Unless your selling a house through me , I would expect you not to mind if I drop a major portal for something you've never heard of , it's amazing how many of the arguments some agents are putting up about the portals magically don't apply to their own client base
I would be interested to know why Mr Wyatt isn't dropping both main portals?
Is Rightmove a safety net or a comfort blanket?
Digital Expert repeats a fact I have made on more than one occasion: " Your customers use their RM & Z apps on their iPads, iPhones, whatever and will just not see the properties not on the sites they don't know about." EXACTLY! How does someone KNOW that prior to OTM Xamount of properties appeared in a search on RM or Z but after OTM only Yamount now appear?? Agents saying "once they see there are fewer properties on RM/Z they will soon find they are on OTM" are in for a shock. If they don't know there are fewer properties why would they search further? And as for this other oft repeated statement "you aren't a proper EA if you need portals to sell property" … if that's the case why are EA's supporting OTM? Why not just drop all portals full stop? The baloney that is talked about the whole RM/Z/OTM issue regularly defies common business sense.
Bravo.
I think a lot of people are in for a big surprise. I also know the public will vote with their wallets, and this will be the decider.
By searching? By the number of pages shown at the bottom of every page on the property listings? Once again if you search and no listings come back, you'll go elsewhere. If agents could drop every portal they would be happy to. Before property portals we sold properties just the same. However since property portals have come around it has made people lazy and they would rather sit at home and browse a website than spend time calling up agents asking for their latest instructions, visiting their high street office etc. So yes you have to use property portals however it doesn't mean that we can't choose who we get to use. People are forgetting that if RM and Zoopla hadn't taken the pee out of agents by charging them stupid amounts per month, OTM would probably of never happened. Portals have nothing to sell or let apart from what agents give them.
"However since property portals have come around it has made people lazy and they would rather sit at home and browse a website than spend time calling up agents asking for their latest instructions, visiting their high street office etc."
I think you just defined "efficiency." Do you think that buyers liked having to walk around the high street talking to agents and calling them up once a week to ask for new properties? Of course not. They like the one-stop-shop that the portals provide.
Exactly, nice to see some sanity on here. The public has moved online for all types of purchase, and most significantly, the research phase of most purchases commences online – whether smaller items, or cars/houses. OTM smacks of agents wanting to dictate to the public where they can browse/research/shop…but there is no proposition – no website, no (sufficient) marketing budget. In years to come this will be a business studies case study…on how not to 'disrupt' a market.
Any committed buyer or tenant will ensure that they exhaust every possible avenue and see all available properties on the market at that time. Job notice board, Web portals, walking down a high Street, local paper, social media, friends, enemies etc. If your serious about buying/renting (and not a browser or estate agent) then one way or another you will find the property. Come out with all the figures you like but time and time again it has been proven that estate agency is an emotive sale that involves people putting in the effort, if not then why view a property?
I think you may overstate the "exhaustiveness" of some peoples' searches. Especially on the rental side. Recently my daughter moved to London. She had a month to find a place to live while working a full-time job. She didn't even know what area of London she wanted to be in. She spent a few days scoping out different areas and narrowed the list down to a few she wanted to live in. Then what do you think she did? If you guessed that she went on PrimeLocation (her preferred) to find properties in those areas you'd be right. She ended up viewing around 10 properties, all but one of which she found on PL (the agent who showed her one had another he thought she might like…she didn't), and is very happy with the one she eventually chose in Belsize Park.
Any committed buyer or tenant will ensure that they exhaust every possible avenue and see all available properties on the market at that time. – FACT – plenty of committed buyers only look at RM or Z.
Just like agents have nothing to sell except what vendors give them.
Charging silly amounts?
Look at the cost per property – it's usually around £3-10 per property sale to be on the portals. You're kidding yourself & your vendors.
Go back 5 years and look at advertising costs on 5 websites rather than 2, at newspaper advertising that doesn't work and at every other industry where business who sell a product or a service accept that advertising is what makes or breaks.
You've all got it good and some of you have no idea.
Roll on the revolution, where OTM will come back to you cap in hand begging for more money to keep the ship afloat, as RM & Z spend £m's of their own money on prime time TV, radio, outdoor etc promoting the businesses who stayed.
If they were charging us £3 to £10 a property sale on RM or Zoopla I for one would not be complaining. When stocks are low particularly in our area which is a rural area it may be nearer £50 per month per property with RM. We are charged on an office basis not per property. That is a very big difference to the £3 to £10 you refer to.
Spot on Yorkshire Agent. Some years we have been paying nearer £200 per property! These money guzzling portals don't give a fig about low stock levels. It is grossly unfair not to reflect the number of properties being listed in their subscription rates. At least in the days before portals if we only had three properties on the market, then that is all we paid for. And if we had none, we paid nothing!
Sorry, call me Devil's Advocate, but why is it RightMove's problem that your branch isn't winning instructions? If you are paying £200 per month per property, that means your branch inventory is 2-3 properties for the month…if that is true why are you even open for business?
I thought one of the newbies would come back with that silly comment, and you got there first, ukpropmaster. Well, it's simple. We are lettings only agents. We are very long established. We have a very loyal landlord base, and on the whole very long term tenancies. We don't proactively look for new business – we don't need to, nor do we want to have more than we can comfortably handle without taking on more staff (and we don't want more staff). So you tell me, why should it fall to us to generate more stock to advertise, so that the duopoly charges seem "reasonable"? And whilst you're at it, tell me why they (RM & Z) can't charge lower rates to the many companies advertising smaller stock volumes?
Hi MF and thanks for the reply. I understand your predicament. You are a small shop with limited revenues and a very loyal following. What I would suggest may not be what you expect: drop one or both portals. As a rational business owner you should do what is in your business' best interest, and since you don't seem to need the portals as a selling point for your loyal vendors, being members on RM and/or ZPLA doesn't seem to offer a good return on investment for your business. Please note though that no where in this response have I mentioned Agent's Mutual–joining them is a completely different decision which I would also argue is not in your business' interests.
Yes ukpropmaster – we're on the same wave length. (Although I have "landlords", not "vendors".) We did drop a portal, about five years ago. We will not be listing on OTM, unless they offer a subscription rate that reflects our needs and budget. But we shall continue to fully support them in every way we can…
MF, that's the most logical thing I have heard from an AM supporter yet. I completely agree with your reasoning and think you have made the right choice. Congrats. (And sorry so used to typing vendors recently, let my fingers get ahead of my brain!)
And AM hits the Daily Mail. Discuss.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/markets/article-2850730/CITY-FOCUS-Bitter-war-estate-agents-leave-movers-getting-thousands-pounds-sell-home-industry-insiders-believe.html
"The Daily Mail (which is 31.8 per cent owned by DMG Media, parent company of the Daily Mail)."….Yet another stitch up.
And also The Telegraph! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/11246981/Estate-agent-wars-could-make-it-harder-to-sell-your-home.html
It seems Agents have once again opened them up to attacks from the media. Try to restrict the market against the consumer and that is what you get. The last thing Agents Mutual need is that kind of bad press on there brand, they have a tough time ahead.
DavidBamforth…This was the other stitch up from the weekend!
DavidBamforth
If you really think that an estate agent can only sell property through portals then you are not an estate agent.
92%+ of property is found through online search, which means RM & Z/PL.
I don't really think many estate agents know much about their audience.
Why not invest in a newspaper ad?
So are you saying that if Zoopla only has a handful of properties left on it's books after most agents leave for OTM and RM, that people are still going to continue to use their site?
Firstly I think if you believe 'most agents' will leave for OTM, regardless of staying with RM or Z, you're living in a fantasy world.
Consumer behaviour is an art form that agents know little about and understand even less. Your customers use their RM & Z apps on their iPads, iPhones, whatever and will just not see the properties not on the sites they don't know about.
Something not many are even acknowledging as a factor which I find very interesting!
Apps that will show a reduced number of properties come the OTM launch. It's really not that hard to understand. It doesn't matter whether they use RM or Zoopla, or doesn't matter if they have RM or Zoopla set as their homepage. The fact is what, over 4000 agents are leaving one, if not both, for OTM. I wouldn't shop for food as ASDA if I knew they didn't have what I wanted, i'g go to Tescos.
92% of people END UP ONLINE!!!! But their is NO PROOF 92% of people FOUND the property this way…….. If you were an estate agent, you would know Boards lead to people going online to see more, as do emails to applicants etc when they CLICK on the hyper links to the property…….. ONLINE is simply the easy window to see all the details, but true buyers still register to buy with agents and would NEVER rely on the portals to be the only way they will know about property. Ask a chap on my books now, he's just complained he did not get a chance to buy a property through us which we sold within 24 hours (well 12 actually and no not cheap!!!) he was not registered and waited for RM to load it, and it did load it but as SSTC!!……
Oh dear. No proof? Other than the millions of leads (quantifiable leads) that are sent to the industry from these websites every year?
If you weren't an agent, you would have a less blinkered understanding of how people look for any product or service in 2014 – online. Researching price, value, competition, et al. An inescapable fact.
Property is THE big purchase in ones life – your public will use the web to get to you. They will have done all their research months before they contact you. They DO rely on the internet for this important purchase. For a nominal price per property, you are advertising to your WHOLE market.
If you didn't already know this as true, you wouldn't have bought into the OTM dream, would you?
@ Digital Expert…….Are you a mate of "Portal Person"….it's just you seem to share the same lack of industry knowledge in my opinion.
Digital Expert – There is NO PROOF (I will say it again) the 92% of these people did not see (lets say Acacia Avenue) the for sale sign and then went home, looked at the property online and then called the agent to view…………….. Now if this was done (as above) via RM for instance, RM will rightly claim that lead, (YOU as a digi person would certainly say yep another RM lead) however RM do not ask: what prompted you to visit this site and this property today with a multi choice set of answers to make the question clear……………… ie: Did you see a for sale sign before searching for this listing……. Did you find it whilst searching generally on RM with no idea it was for sale…….. Did you look as a result of someone telling you the property was for sale ie agent or friend…….. MY POINT IS……no website can genuinely claim they CREATED that lead uniquely……. without measuring if the user knew about the property before they visited the site…… Not sure RM/Z or even OTM to be fair would be keen to report it was the board, a staff member, friend of a friend or even the newspaper which created the knowledge about the property………………… So Digi Expert, my point is not that NO ONE uses the web or, I am saying the web is often simply the easiest place to see the information or more information that other forms of media cannot display, but because of this it also quite possibly takes FAR too much credit in the "lead generated" debates……. unless as a DigiExpert you are saying NO ALL HOUSE SALES are as a direct result of the web….. but I know you are not saying that as that would be silly…………..
Ric, "true buyers still register to buy with agents and would NEVER rely on the portals to be the only way they will know about property." WRONG, WRONG & WRONG AGAIN. You are making one of the biggest mistakes that many people in all walks of life and business make … using the word NEVER (or substitute ALWAYS, NO ONE, etc.) ie you are saying NOT ONE true buyer DOES NOT register with an EA??? I bet anywhere between 50%-90% of the properties sold by the average EA where not sold to pre-registered buyers.
Okay sorry NEVER and certainly typing NEVER in caps was a poor choice of words……… however, an active hot buyer keen to find the right house and who is ready to buy the next one will ALMOST always contact an agent to register details………………Even those active buyers who do not want to be on the mailing list "as such" have usually left details if they have viewed a house and when getting feedback almost always agree to a phone call about the next one, if the one they viewed was not right……. So yep you are right NEVER was wrong, BUT CP you are jumping on another weak point or easy point to pick on from me about my comments ie NEVER was a poor choice of words but you get what I am saying as an agent surely?……. or as an agent are you saying and would say to your clients, we do not need to call your property out as we know 92% of buyers will get to it anyway? …………………..My point above was suggesting "in my opinion" out of that 92% of online visitors quoted by the Digi person, it is unlikely ALL of those visits were made without having been lead to the portal by a board or email link……………..anyone who uses Encore Live will know emailing property out on a daily basis results in hundreds of clicks on the embedded emails which in turn leads them to the link you have embedded, in my case our website…… so do I go out there saying all those viewings came from my website? NO they came from the mail out which lead to my website and the website was merely the way in which we enabled them to see the rest of the property information…….
there not their! oops.
"92%+ of property is found through online search, which means RM & Z/PL." Sorry – from WHICH source is that information provided? Oh – that would be THE PORTALS. No bias there, then…
So basically you are dropping Prime Location AND Zoopla for a portal created as a protest vote? Stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about the consumers who it is your job to serve, I think this agency have allowed their own personal feelings to corrupt the very reason why they became an estate agent in the first place – to sell property. This is a new untested portal with low marketing budget, zero brand awareness and brings nothing new to the consumer (in fact only restricting the market) I believe this agency has made a big mistake. Ask Google and Tesco…..Good luck to them.
What a numpty comment. Guessing you are not an agent? They will still be on RM and OTM – I have large reservations about AM but I cannot see the argument that the consumers are penalised? And Google and Tesco were completely different propositions.
Consumers are penalised through having to look harder for less. This is obvious to all but the people they pertain to serve.
Yes, Google & Tesco were different propositions to AM – they had national branding, brand loyalty and nearly bottomless pockets – and they still backed out knowing there was no opportunity & no desire from the public for another portal.
Good luck protecting yourselves against the unstoppable force of progress whilst denying your customers of the minimum of what they require.
The minimum they require is that you sell their property quickly at a good price. As long as that happens I doubt they really care which property portal their property is listed on.
Selling merchandise quickly and at the best price, (regardless if it's property, eggs, cars or guitars) means putting your product in front of as many eyeballs as possible.
That is a fact: OTM doesn't, objectively, figure in that process.
The TESCO model had a flaw where putting up a board made them an agent under the estate agents act. We then had PMA (now gone) which meant their FSBO fee (£299 I seem to recall) opened them to potential £5,000 fines.
"Guessing you are not an agent?" Probably a disgruntled Zoopla shareholder!
Isn't it amazing all the new names coming on to comment negatively (and strongly) about OTM supporters lately! Other agents? Doubt it… Consumers? Doubt that too…
I'm a humble property owner and I demand the maximum amount of exposure for my properties from my agents, I have no time for agents who effectively reduce my business for their own personal grudges… Property owners I know certainly will not be requiring the services of estate agents with Agents Mutual, if they dropped the no second portal rule that may change things, competition is good for the market and I would wish my properties on all three for the maximum amount of exposure.
I just find myself wondering which of the portals is funding your time on here today (and it seems to be a lot of time!).
Errrr still hundreds of portals out there, AM are only making agents choose between RM & Z as for the second numpty comment of "The consumer should not have to look harder" why don't we just have one shop to get all out shopping from ……. Oh think they tried this its call communism – Did not work out too well!
The thing thats interesting about this story is just the passion raised amongst agents by OTM. I don't think Ive ever seen anything like in the time I've been involved in this industry. As for the last comment by Mr Loverdos from Romans, his job title suggests he is at least qualified to remove any splinter he gets from sitting on that fence!
Perhaps with Dale Norton not at the helm anymore, they have lost their balls RA!
We dropped zoopla in July. They made false promises and doubled pricing. Haven't noticed any negative effect at all.
I honestly feel like I've woken up in some bizarre parallel world. Am I imagining things or are agents seemingly rejoicing in ditching Zoopla and keeping Rightmove? Have I missed something? The only motivation I had for even looking at Agents Mutual was the possibility it gave me of leaving Rightmove, which I decided was too much to ask. Ditching Zoopla seems completely counter-productive. What is going on?!
These agents who drop Z & stay with RM will have a very interesting time negotiating their rates with RM in 2016.
"So, we delivered 95% of your online enquiries, your rate is now £3k per month. Take it or leave it"