Victory may be in sight for Shelter in terms of its campaign to have letting agents’ fees charged to tenants banned – but it is certainly not letting up the pressure and wants the ban to go further.
In its latest blog, writer Chris Thorne claims there’s a loophole which will allow letting agents to charge “default” fees.
Shelter says that these are written into contacts and charged if an agent or landlord incurs a cost: “The problem is that without more protections, agents and landlords will charge what they like, for almost anything they like – giving them free rein to rip people off.
“There is no doubt about it: letting agents and landlords intend to exploit this loophole.”
The blog then lists “the most scandalous fees our supporters have been charged”.
They include fees which will not be banned – £45 procurement fee for dustpan and brush; £200 to remove a new set of saucepans that the outgoing tenant had left for the next renter; £100 for cobweb removal; and £10 to iron a curtain.
These fees all beggar belief, says the Shelter blog.
It calls on the Government to prevent such cases “by limiting the type of default fees allowed and making it easier for tenants to challenge any unfair fees”.
The Tenant Fees Bill has its second reading on Monday (May 21).
Comments (64)
From a personal standpoint I intend to ensure that every time I cannot house someone because they need, but cannot obtain, a guarantor or they have pets that a LL won’t take as they have no way of charging a slightly increased deposit or their situation is slightly outside of the norm (like the chap who was in a homeless shelter with his kids that I housed yesterday) that they have the email address of the CEO of Shelter and contact details for the Housing Minister and our local MP so that they can thank them from the bottom of their hearts for their contribution to their situation moving forward.
Interestingly I have had many tenants move of late to buy. Proving that when you curt your cloth according to your means (a major problem in todays insta worthy champagne lifestyle on a beer budget mentality), however, as wonderful as it is to encourage home ownership, I was really surprised when 2 of them called me from their new abodes asking for trades details. Of course, always happy to put a bit of business the contractors way, I obliged. Apparently, so I hear, one needed a new boiler and the whole cost of that came as quite a shock after spending all that money on their nice new home. Welcome to home ownership.
Guess it’s that age old adage of always being careful what you wish for…..
Leave it alone guys – we all know the likes of spyguy62 just twist any comment around to suit their agenda
Surely default fees should be deposit deductions that can be challanged by the tenant. Wasnt that the whole point of introducing the deposit legislation?
The question is should tenant have to pay for their own defaults. Shelter say no.
The position should be that agents or landlords be able to charge fees that are reasonable and proportional for work they incur because OF THE TENANTS BEHAVIOUR.
There are so many business that are permitted to charge fees, workman wouldn’t go if they couldn’t cover their overheads. Todays situation is more about over charging and unscrupulous fees. We already have an adjudicator over disputes on charges when it comes to deposits. As long at the cost is fair and is as a result of the tenant behaviour, then what is the problem? Maybe it should be permitted to have standard cost per hour fee, cost of materials and PSV rates for travelling. Isn’t that the norm in many industries when you ask for a quote?
Dear Mr Thorne
Well done sir, you have ensured that all Landlords and letting agents increase the rents as soon as this ridiculous fee ban comes in. It was quite obvious to absolutely everyone except those Turkeys that were voting to cancel Christmas that there should have been a fee cap, that would have stopped those rather greedy London agents from charging £600.00 for something that the rest of the country was charging around £120.00 for.
So tenants surely won’t be our customers in future given that we receive no payment from them for anything we do for them? Strange though how we will still have to answer to the Property Ombudsman for trivial complaints from these non-paying tenants.
It is such a shame we have such a pathetic weak leader in the Conservative Party who has jumped on Labour policy to win votes.
Country Lass you do talk a lot of sense, don’t be put off by Shelter and the trolls!
It’s crossed my mind to email Mrs May and that lot to ask if I could be the next Housing Minister as the current bunch have no clue what they are doing.
Problem is I’m as political as a tree stump and have the tact of a rock through a window… I doubt I’d last long!
You should complain to NLA and RLA and then look at yourself and then ask why didnt we taken control of the situation earlier and push the scummy letting agents and landlords out of the business instead of whining on internet about shelter.
If you look at one of my first posts you will see that I mentioned we needed the current regulations and legislation to be clear and enforceable. The two you have mentioned are membership bodies, not regulators.
If all landlords had to use an agent, and those agents were regulated by one body, with teeth, then there would not be the issues there are now. Oh, is that what agents have been saying for years? Um, yes!
Shelter are not trying to get rid of the bad letting agents and bad landlords their stance is aimed at ALL letting agents and ALL landlords. The more difficult and more hostile you make it for ALL landlords the less rental property will exist and the competition disappears making rents more expensive. The non targeted approach alienates both good landlords and good agents, in turn tenants will loose choice and renting will be more expensive. This will reduce mobility of labour and those wishing to move jobs to other parts of the country. Shelter keep attacking ALL landlords and ALL agents it is no surprise agents and landlords don’t love shelter. I see no criticism of the asset stripping councils and housing associations flogging off the social housing purchased with OUR & OUR PARENTS taxes putting its tenants into the PRS and then complaining they don’t like the prices and wanting to control it. Shelter use suspect methods with their statistics using small biased samples. Shelter have highly paid executives; a true charity would work for nothing or subsistence costs – THEY ARE BIG BUSINESS THAT PROVIDE NO HOUSING. The view expressed is a personal opinion.
keep up all the snide comment and repulsive attitudes you’re making the argument to ban all letting agent fees and add more regulations for landlords very easy.
How? By wanting to be paid for what we do? Tell you what, can you come and clean my house for me? I don’t want to pay you for it, and I realise that it’s my responsibility to keep my home in a tidy and clean state, but I don’t want to. You don’t mind doing it do you? And I’m sure your boss would be happy to pay you to do something that is of no benefit for your job and doesnt bring in any income!
Some Lettings Agents charge far too much, I would never disagree with that, and I have said many times that a fee ban would be a good idea.
All they are doing at the moment though is rewarding those scummy people who leave their property in a tip when they go, ignore all the LEGAL CLAUSES they signed up for on what can and cannot be done in the property, then whinge when we have to pay someone to do what they could have done for free. £10 to iron curtains? Depending on the size, it could take half an hour. THEY made that choice not to do it. And why should I do it, or ask someone to do it for free? There was something on her about £25 to take bin bags out. Thats a fair charge to me. I don’t know whats in there! Why should I do it for free? And even if I got one of my contractors to go and do it, they would still charge a call-out fee of £30 +VAT so I’d say they got a good deal!
There are a lot of good people unable to get decent homes, there are a lot of good people renting awful accommodation, there are a lot of hard working people paying £1000s just to rent a property.
There was an article about the lifestyle club where they are scamming young migrant workers, where was your outrage then? there were 9 comments on that post yet there are 22 on here.
You are calling for shelter to be closed down, a charity that does its best to help people. people who have been scammed by companies like lifestyle club. When you are posting your disgusting comments about shelter do you think that actually maybe they do a lot of good?
The people commenting on here are selfish.. and need to learn that they are not the centre of the world..
FYI i know you are not capable of any self awareness so this post will go completely over your head. Keep it up youre making it so easy…
Also why dont you post under your company name? Perhaps because you dont want your tenants to see what you post
I’ve never said that they should be shut down, I’m arguing that they should stop trying to interfere in an industry that needs the current regulations enforceable, not more red tape!
Yes, there are people unable to get homes. There are also cr*p landlords who don’t use an agent who have awful accomodation. Those of us who take pride in our work and try to make sure that the houses wemanage are in good condition.
An example. I visited a property of a 90 year old man a few months ago. He was adamant that he could sand down and repaint the inside and outside of all of the windows on the house. Although that could have been classed as ‘reasonable repairs and maintenance’ that a Tenant should do, I persuaded the Landlord to pay a contractor over £200 to do it rather than have this old man try and do it.
So I’m trying to do my best to help tenants, keep Landlords happy and yet all I seem to hear from your precious Shelter is that I am a thief, a disgusting, sub-human parasite sucking the money out of poor tenants who don’t know better than to keep a bathroom ventilated and wipe condensation off a window. Yes, I’m p!ssed off. I was fully in favour of a fee cap. I felt that it would protect Tenants from those who were taking advantage of them.
But until Shelter actually lobby for something to stop landlords finding tenants/managing it themselves with no input from aregulated agent, all they are doing is persecuting those of us trying to do our jobs. I have as much right to be paid for my time and my professional expertise and opinion as they do.
I didn’t really see much about the Lifestyle club article, was that the one where they were claiming they werent an estate agent? That proves my point that they will find loopholes as they are not affiliated with a regulated agent.
The world doesnt evolve around you, can actually grasp this and remove your ego from your posts? Where has shelter said that countrylass is slumlandlord? they havent. Shelter is a charity for tenants not letting agents or landlords, they are doing what they have reasoned is best for tenants.
The owners of Lifestyle club ran another company and because the name became so toxic they closed it. The lifestyle club belongs to the PRS and the company before them belonged to TPO. I highlighted that company to everyone, Sajiid david, TPO and nothing happened.
No, they are treating me and all the other hard-working agents out there as scum. Much better. I have worked hard to get where I am, I have attended training courses, I have read through the contracts of every place I have worked to make sure that they are fair to BOTH sides of the Tenancy. If a Tenant is keeping a property in good condition, if they have always paid their rent on time and have tried to allow access to gas engineers and workmen as soon as possible, then of course I am going to try and help them, whilst protecting the Landlords investment as well. If I feel that a job NEEDS to be done, and it is down to the Landlords then I will do everything I can to persuade them to do it.
If a Tenant is always late on their rent, knows I am coming round for an inspection but cant be bothered to even tidy up their dirty underwear from the floor, then I’m obviously going to be less than sympathetic to the dripping tap or cracked tile. It’s a two-way street.
All of my Tenants know that they can calls, text or email me at any time regarding mainatenance, and I will sort it as soon as I can. But in return, I expect the rent to be paid, I expect the house to be kept in a reasonably clean and tidy state, and returned in the same condition as when they moved in. I don’t want ‘good’ tenants to leave, some of mine have been in their homes for 18years!
I don’t want to bleed tenants dry, and I don’t want to do it to Landlords either. What I want is to be paid a fair price for doing my job, and not to be accused of ripping people off by charging to do what they should and could have done in the first place.
I don’t expect the world to *revolve around me. If it did then it would be a d*mn sight better for decent people I can guarantee you of that. I also don’t expect to be vilified for the crimes and behaviours of others.
Sounds like someone has an axe to grind and blinkered from anything that is obvious. Hasn’t come up with any creditable argument for agents to cover overheads with a fair fee for work done that is all down to the misbehaving tenant.
The misbehaving tenant is the key. Those good tenants don’t get chraged, as there isn’t the work to do.
Your arguments on this site are basically “no you” and “they dont understand”… absolutely childish.
Landlords should pay the cost. They are better placed to negotiate pricing. they are the ones engaging the letting agent to rent the property out and so therefore they are working for the landlord not the tenant.
When people pop onto this site and make comment, it dosen’t take long to work out those that have a personal TROLL agenda or talk absolute tosh. I do not insult but show people a differing perspective for them to consider, but when they argue against the obvious without any justification they get all upset. It would seem you have fallen into that category today.
What the hell is a “personal TROLL agenda”? The word have a specific meaning and the word troll does not mean someone who disagreed with me.
Yeah you do show your own personal agenda/perspective and it amazes me the level of cognitive dissonance going on here.
As I said to country lass keep up your comments and repulsive attitudes you’re making it so so easy.. I show people the comments on sites like here to highlight the attitude issues tenants face.
Yes, expecting to be paid for our work and expecting that people pay for work they don’t want to do themselves, truly repulsive!
The main issue is that it is the BAD agents that cause the problems for the GOOD ones, and the BAD tenants who get charged for the problems they cause themselves!
Here’s a simple tip for those people you show this too, if they are Tenants;
Be friendly, honest and upfront. If you have a CCJ or damaged a previous property, we will find out.
Pay your rent on time. if it is going to be more than a day late for some reason, or you are in financial difficulty, call your agent. We want to help!
Keep the property in good condition. If something breaks, tell your agent straight away. We can’t fix it if we don’t know about it. And if it is in the contract as down to you to sort (cleaning gutters or chimneys for example) please don’t try and argue. You signed the cotract after being given time to read it.
If you can’t find your inventory when you leave, ask your agent for another copy so you can be sure you are returning the property in the same condition.
If you do all that, there is very little reason you won’t get your deposit back.
actually it’s because I have posted under this name for 6 years now, on this and other trade presses. As I try to follow contracts, unlike some, I want to make sure that nothing I post is a reflection on the companies I have worked for, and that there is no chance that I could bring the company in to disrepute by posting my PERSONAL views and opinions.
If you want to call me an actual name, I’m Victoria.
why dont you use your full name.. stop with the cognitive dissonance and just face it you post absolute bile and youre shamed to admit it.
No. I don’t want people like you to be able to follow me or find me on social media etc and continue your abuse there.
Also, I very much doubt it say ‘spyguy62’ on your birth certificate… You’ve got more clue about who I am than I do about you.
So why is SPYGUY62 not using his full name and address or declaring who he works for?
Has his own agenda and as you highlighted doesn’t practice what he preaches.
i’m not a letting / estate agent nor a tenant nor a landlord. I’m 3rd party (home owner) looking at the situation and then looking at the bile you lot post and whilst other 3rd parties may not care I do and i like to show the world (journalists, solicitors, friends, tenants) the **** you lot post.
In other words a TROLL, no material interest in the subject.
you just dont get it do you… good luck with your business youre going to need it.
spyguy62 You certainly don’t get it, better to stick to your hidden name as some may think you are a complete ……. (I’ll leave it to others to decide where you fit in).
Again your argument is just “no you are”.
You openly admit to harassing journalists, you are calling for a charity to close down and this is just from one post. What else have you written? You are not the good guy here.
Your problem and you can’t come up with a creditable argument, just making biased statements with incorrect facts. Its embarrassing. Where does it say on this thread I have asked for Shelter to be closed down and I haven’t admitted to harassing journalists either. One wonders on the level of your experience as you are getting things wrong, hypocrite comments and throwing insults. WE are only responding to your comments……..
As for the good guy, I said it before When people pop onto this site and make comment, it dosen’t take long to work out those that have a personal TROLL agenda or talk absolute tosh. I do not insult but show people a differing perspective for them to consider, but when they argue against the obvious without any justification they get all upset. It would seem you have fallen into that category today.
Many today and before have shown their views why they think Shelter are wrong and why they consider they should be paid for work they have done. You haven’t come up with one creditable argument against what they have said or a sensible solution for all to work with.
spyguy62
May 17, 2018 at 11:36 #41why dont you use your full name.. stop with the cognitive dissonance and just face it you post absolute bile and youre shamed to admit it.
In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance is the mental discomfort experienced by a person who simultaneously holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values. There is only one operson who has raised this today and it would seem the hat fits as they complain but hide behind another name.
Spyguy, for someone waffling on about bilious posts and spouting your ‘cognitive dissonance’ tagline, I have to say you come across as unknowlegable, opinionated and unable to hold an objective discussion considering all points of the argument.
I am also not a letting agent or estate agent, and having privately rented have been fortunate enough to have had agents who looked after me, I enjoyed a good relationship with my Landlord and I looked after the property.
I am firmly of the opinion that it was fair and just that I paid fees relating to my conduct; had I not cleaned the property why should I expect someone else to do it? If that meant the agent had to go to the trouble of organising it then absolutely they should bill me for it; it’s no-ones fault but my own!
Like any service industry, agents should be able to charge for their time and service (provided it’s reasonable); to expect them to work for free is ludicrous.
Your constant nonsense and rudeness on what is a civilised discussion just serves to highlight your own blinkered ignorance and inability to see past your own point of view.
Best not to respond to these trolling clowns, Countrylass
Spyguy62, I would like to request your name, email and telephone number. I would like to pass these on to the tenants I have that cannot get a guarantor so have paid a bigger than 6 week deposit so that we can genuinely help them (including a council tenant I housed yesterday), so that when, as the nasty self serving theiving idiotic individual I am, I can no longer assist them they can contact you to discuss how the situation you are in support of solved all of their problems please. Thank you kindly.
Actually I’d like Shelter to be closed down, or at least lose their charitable status. I believe they do a great deal more harm than good and realy exist to line the pockets of their salaried staff. This of course is my opinion and you have the opposite. However the top 12 ‘executives’ in Shelter take the best part of £1m out of the so-called charity every year. This money comes mostly from charitable donations.
When S24 was announced several landlords wrote to the Shelter CEO of the time. He replied saying that Shelter was in support of the tax change as most people want to own their own homes. Apart from home ownership being a red herring, with that statement he moved his organisation from one that most people believe exists to support the needy in keeping a roof over their head, to one that favours wealthier and aspirational home buyers. Hmmm, that’s a bit naughty in my book.
The people in the organisation clearly thought about their stance on the tax change and unsurprisingly dropped their CEO’s bizarre statement. If you look at their blog pages they now say that they support S24 because not many landlords will be affected but at the same time they suggest that a meaningful amount of tax will be reaped and COULD be used to increase housing benefit!! Well I am clueless as to why they think that Government would do that. They do however also concede that rents will have to rise. Hmmm, that doesn’t sound like a policy to protect the low-paid does it? And of course if they’re promoting housing benefit increasing that in itself is an inflationary move on rental costs.
I’ll point out a coincidence in all of this though… As we know S24 doesn’t affect corporate landlords. They will enjoy any rental inflation without paying the extra S24 tax. Companies like Legal & General being one of them as they have moved so heavily into the build-to-rent sector. I’m sure though that as they are one of Shelter’s sponsor partners, they will do all they can to reverse Shelter’s support of S24. Won’t they??? After all, Shelter say that these ‘partners’ help form policy.
When landlords used to pay proper agency fees, tenants were not charged anything; well, perhaps a nominal sum to cover the actual cost of referencing. It is the agents that decided to reduce LL fees to gain an advantage over the opposition and cause a race to the bottom. There are now agents who charge landlords nothing to find a tenant. Therefore tenants are now covering the reduction in the fees charged to landlords. As a result, there are now landlords who have never paid more than 5% ish for management including tenant find and on-line agents continue to reduce landlord management fees further. Although involved in the industry myself, I think it is a disgrace that tenants are charged such ridiculous fees that ought to be limited to referencing only and capped.
I agree TOZ4. Some are absolutely disgusting fees! Its a clear case of the greedy ruining it for those of us who charge fair fees. My average fee for a couple is £166.67 +VAT to start a tenancy. If they have someone over 18 living with them then it goes up to £187.50 for a basic credit check. As that includes a contribution towards the Inventory as well, I hardly feel that is daylight robbery, do you?
A fee cap would have been a much better idea than a ban!
I agree but just as sensible reference fees shold be charged, there are occassions of no fault by landlords created by tenants that costs agents and they should be allowed to charge tenants a sensible fee. Shelter is highlighting the extreme cases. They would be the first complain, as would anyone else who is paid a salary, to have to take a pay cut or not get paid for work done because a customer behaves foolishly or badly.
This whole saga has been whipped up into a frenzy, with very little thought of consequences for both sides. Sense should prevail … ???????
** Shock, horror; £10 to iron a curtain! Surely a decent lettings agent would carry a steam iron in their vehicle, together with an ironing board and do this for free??
DO THEY THINK WE WORK FOR BL00DY FREE????!!! Ok, they want to stop tenants paying fees to move in to a home? Then I want a refund for the mortgage application fee and survey when I bought my house. And I’m not happy about being charged interest on the mortgage either.
Oh, those are legitimate business expenses associated with buying a home? SO ARE TENANT FEES!
Well said Lass,
there is a Rent increase survey currently being organised by Property118,
you might like to support, as it could do with Landlords of your calibration.
I’m a letting agent (*GASP!* Devil-spawn!!) Lol, does that make a difference?
Someone on here doesn’t like letting agents. How did you get a dislike?
I suspect it’s my mate Spyguy62…
I’ve got one now. Now who could it be … answers on a postage stamp.
I can see many tenants being locked out of their home. No agent is going to travel miles by default of the tenant locking themselves out and what about sorting out their Anti Social Behaviours that requires visits. Compounded for those in rural areas!
Chris Thorne is not fit for purpose if he cannot see the dire consequences for tenants. But then who is he answerable to …. the Government who in effect pay his salary!
I can see lots of people with criminal records and having to pay massive fines then.
?
Simple, agents have no responsibility to let them back in throught no fault of the landlord and a Sec 21 notice for thugs. Talking of which …..
Do agents have a responsibility to vet tenants with The Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) which helps make safer decisions and prevent unsuitable people from living next to vulnerable groups, including children?
Wouldn’t it be nice if tenants are required to get a full disclosure certificate before applying for a tenancy. Certainly help with Right to Rent etc.
Simple Google search – chris_thorne@shelter.org.uk
Thanks! I’ve taken up emailing all of these self-proclaimed industry expert journalists whenever they come up with such standard drivvle.
Billy,
lots of like minded comments to yours on Property118
Does anyone know Chris Thorne’s email address?
Shelter should go to meetings when landlords view their house at the end of tenancy and explain to Landlords why there are cobwebs, un-ironed curtains, pots pans etc left, and dustpans and brushes missing – plus the other myriad of things shelter won’t have mentioned is wrong with the place. I certainly won’t have tidies up after the tenant – not my job. Perhaps Shelter would like to offer a free service of going in to clear up after tenants
The only charity (so called) that appears to encourages people to breach contracts apart from some councils who encourage contempt of court (those who encourage tenants to remain despite court orders). Mr Thorne, if your clients conform to their contracts the fees to which you refer would not be applied. The deposit companies have checks in place and do not allow such claims if they are unreasonable. Many tenants are lovely clean and considerate people but it would seem those who use shelter seem to be awful if there is such a high incidence of problems with shelter’s clients.
Dictionary definition of shelter, perhaps needs updating to include – egotistical bunch of overpaid luvvies hell bent on ruining the livelihood of many an honest letting agent whilst grovelling to government for more money to cover their inflated salaries.
Definition of shelter
1a : something that covers or affords protection
a bomb shelter
: an establishment providing food and shelter (as to the homeless): an establishment that houses and feeds stray or unwanted animals
2: a position or the state of being covered and protected
took shelter
Ha ha, Dictionary definitions certainly don’t refer to the organisation.
what I don’t understand.
, is why they don’t attack the government for all its detrimental policies against Housing provision, accommodation costs etc….
wouldn’t be anything to do with them being ‘bribed’. Paid of by Govt donations disguised as grants ?
Shelter do not house a single family or person and seem to now be the authority on the residential housing market. Their advice to government already causes more grief and hardship for ordinary people than any other single factor.
I suspect that Shelter, like many politicians, focus only on what they believe will keep them ‘in business’.
What Shelter and Mr Thorne don’t seem to realise is that a fees ban does not make more properties available for those least able to afford them, it does not make more properties available. The fees ban simply makes it cheaper for those who have found a property and are already more able to afford the tenancy.
The unintended consequence is a fees ban makes the gulf between the haves and have nots just a little bit wider.
Why don’t Shelter start building/buying PRS schemes if they already know everything about the rental market? Surely they’d succeed where every other letting agent fails? Oh wait, no they won’t.
Mr Thorne, I strongly resent your implication that all agents and landlords are the same and by default are looking to rip people off.
We are not all cowboys. Some of us are professionals, with ethics.
“At Shelter we feel these dastardly letting agents and landlords have had it easy for too long”, “We now insist that tenants are no longer required to pay rent in any property”